Getting rid of ivy!!

[gary112]

14 minutes ago, CambridgeJC said:

Why so touchy about this? Not everyone thinks like you my friend. How much do you know about genetics and ecology? You sound like you know everything about forestry and simply don’t like someone outside the field asking a few different questions. If you can’t be constructive you should back off and let others speak. 

You just seem to be "making a mountain out of a molehill" so to speak,i personally see no change of late in the amount of ivy growth,as i said before i,ve worked in the countryside all my working life and see no change.Build yourself some proper evidence that we are heading for this "car crash" and come back and show us.

[CambridgeJC]

I have already told everyone that I am a retired scientist and of course have had education and experience over my own three score years and ten. I am keen to learn from informed persons on the subject of ivy encroachment or otherwise in the uk. All contributions are welcome as they can help sort out fact from opinion. Perhaps those guys who are critical of my approach could just inform us all exactly what they do and how much education (you may call this training if you like) that they have had themselves. I have already answered that question from Mike. It’s your turn now. Then we know what we are dealing with. So far I have not received much in the way of facts … only subjective comments on an obviously prickly and longstanding issue which has clearly raised emotions for many years. I have learned a lot of details about ivy over recent weeks and I admit this is a short time. But key people provide real facts. Let’s keep this cool and talk respectfully on this forum. I am sure this is what the administration would prefer. I am reluctant to give up on you on this forum as some of the contributors have delivered sound and relevant information. Thanks to all of you.

[Sutton]

@CambridgeJC

If you've done research, are you proposing to apply for funding for further Climate Change research into the necessity for removing ivy from public footpaths, LA parks and verges? The LA will act only when a certain on a number of health and safety or assessment reports (possibly leading to liability claims or culpable incidents). Remember Norwich and the dangers of conkers dropping on unsuspecting public and the council deciding to cut down all the horse chesnuts or Sheffield and their de-greening program.

 

I still say ivy is a valuable resource and shouldn't be touched unless the tree is being entirely smoothered.

 

Think of ivy as a platform like ebay or amazon. Insects and birds rely on it throughout the year.

It is not the devil's work taking over the countryside.

 

If you are a retired scientist what measurements have you taken? Of all the trees in the UK how many pose a problem? Not many. Do we really want all ivy removed from road verges because of it?

[john87]

Top and bottom of it is that ivy DOES kill and damage trees, and Cambridge JC is trying to investigate the spread of the stuff which seems to have upset the "treehugging" types.. You can GUARANTEE though, that they have not got 4 feet of brambles in THEIR own garden "because insects might like it" nor have they taken all the windows out of their house, as, "birds and bats might like to go in there"

 

Seem very strange to me that you cannot even let a rope rub on a tree, let along spike your way up it, lest you hurt the thing, but it is ok to let ivy strangle it to death??

 

Weird...

 

john..

[CambridgeJC]

1 hour ago, Sutton said:

@CambridgeJC

If you've done research, are you proposing to apply for funding for further Climate Change research into the necessity for removing ivy from public footpaths, LA parks and verges? The LA will act only when a certain on a number of health and safety or assessment reports (possibly leading to liability claims or culpable incidents). Remember Norwich and the dangers of conkers dropping on unsuspecting public and the council deciding to cut down all the horse chesnuts or Sheffield and their de-greening program.

 

I still say ivy is a valuable resource and shouldn't be touched unless the tree is being entirely smoothered.

 

Think of ivy as a platform like ebay or amazon. Insects and birds rely on it throughout the year.

It is not the devil's work taking over the countryside.

 

If you are a retired scientist what measurements have you taken? Of all the trees in the UK how many pose a problem? Not many. Do we really want all ivy removed from road verges because of it?

Thanks so much for your really helpful and measured response. When I say I am fact finding I mean that I am learning about the basics of ivy and its spread and habit together with the reality of its apparent heteroblasty and effects on surroundings and ecology. I am a total beginner in this field and have come to this forum to learn. I am giving my reason for learning about ivy as I am concerned about my local observations of damage I see more and more recently in a wide area here in the east as we travel around and walk into the countryside around as we go. The response has been both informative and occasionally very defensive of estabished understanding. At this point I have little evidence of any major change in invasive changes but my images contain many examples which could just be the result of neglect or could be more sinister as a result of climate change or even an unexpected result of advice by authorities and advisers to leave it alone to take nature’s course. My research is personal. To learn my subject before any accumulation of evidence to support any theory. My research at this is not an accumulation of evidence. So your comments have been really helpful to prompt me to explain my current position.

Some facts I have learned:

Hedera helix is the most likely species involved. 
Hh develops from juvenile exploratory plant into the mature reproductive heteroblastic form. 
The mature plant is used by a wide number of animal and insect species as cover shelter and habitation as well as food. 
Hh can grow high into the canopy. 
Hh can in some cases become heavy and act as a sail to create leverage during high winds. 
Hh does not need to grow high in a hedge to act as such a sail.  
Hh provides valuable habitat and food source and is not always destructive.

Hh can cause danger and or damage to trees and persons if not managed appropriately in such locations.

Hh is considered an invasive species in the USA as an imported species from Europe. 
Hh is not considered invasive in the uk because it is a native species. 
 

I don’t need evidence for the above facts. They are both self evident and well accepted facts. 
 

I am simply asking for information from knowledgeable and involved people on those issues and facts which impact on the subject. Hence my request for information from arborists. I am noting all comments including those which are critical of my approach. These are in fact very informative as they convey the current opinion in a factual form. 
So once again thanks to ALL contributors and responders. 
 

[Sutton]

1 hour ago, john87 said:

Top and bottom of it is that ivy DOES kill and damage trees, and Cambridge JC is trying to investigate the spread of the stuff which seems to have upset the "treehugging" types.. You can GUARANTEE though, that they have not got 4 feet of brambles in THEIR own garden "because insects might like it" nor have they taken all the windows out of their house, as, "birds and bats might like to go in there"

 

Seem very strange to me that you cannot even let a rope rub on a tree, let along spike your way up it, lest you hurt the thing, but it is ok to let ivy strangle it to death??

 

Weird...

 

john..

What type of arb are you, John? If you're domestic, municipal or utilities then from your perspective your view is understood. But going from that to all situations and circumstances?

If only I were so wise and definite

[JSN]

The notion that Ivy kills trees is a common logical fallacy that mistakes correlation with causation.  
The conventional thinking is that only stressed trees - and Ash - succumb. 
Is the high incidence of Ivy covered trees you have noticed due to Ivy being an invasive tree killer, or is it due to an increase in the incidence of stressed / declining trees in the landscape?

 

http://www.arborecology.com/articles/pdfs/ivy_friend_or_foe.pdf

[sime42]

The notion that Ivy kills trees is a common logical fallacy that mistakes correlation with causation.  
The conventional thinking is that only stressed trees - and Ash - succumb. 
Is the high incidence of Ivy covered trees you have noticed due to Ivy being an invasive tree killer, or is it due to an increase in the incidence of stressed / declining trees in the landscape?
 
http://www.arborecology.com/articles/pdfs/ivy_friend_or_foe.pdf

Interesting. Why Ash in particular?

[CambridgeJC]

18 minutes ago, JSN said:

The notion that Ivy kills trees is a common logical fallacy that mistakes correlation with causation.  
The conventional thinking is that only stressed trees - and Ash - succumb. 
Is the high incidence of Ivy covered trees you have noticed due to Ivy being an invasive tree killer, or is it due to an increase in the incidence of stressed / declining trees in the landscape?

 

http://www.arborecology.com/articles/pdfs/ivy_friend_or_foe.pdf

I am careful NOT to say ivy kills a tree.

Except when it causes the tree to uproot or blow down. Or become susceptible to infection due to abrasion or other physical damage. 

This reference has again been used as a source of fact when it is an article written originally 22 years ago by Andrew Cowan and his company web site. In those days there was far less known about this issue and it is high time for an up to date review of facts and figures as well as a full understanding of the development of ivy in the uk landscape as a whole. So we need facts. I am fully aware of historical attitudes to this thorny issue. Sorry no thorns though in this case. 

[Stubby]

1 hour ago, sime42 said:

2 hours ago, JSN said:

 

Read more  

Interesting. Why Ash in particular?

Chalara Fraxinia .  I can't believe you have not noticed . 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Stubby