Maybe the UK should plant more....

[Khriss]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Ed said:

Fascinating conversation BJ & RH.
I see no discussion of conifer harvesting practice - clearfell versus continuous cover. As you know BJ the sight of apocalyptic clearfell sites is one of the reasons for the increasing hostility to conifer plantations. I suspect you’ll say that the costs of CCF management are unsustainable, to which I’d say that is an example of short-termism - just the sort of behaviour that leads to quarterly corporate targets rather than long term plans. I found the life of Talis Kalnar inspiring as an example of combining commerce and environmental concerns, and I’ve been running (or trying to run) an old family firm (in a completely different field) in that sort of way, finding the sweet spot between the two demands. 
You mentioned German beech sales - I have no idea why so many things are so expensive here! 
Also, BJ, many of your points are predicated on the assumption that importing softwood is wrong. Are you sure that’s the case? Why not import spruce from areas where it belongs? Britain has been importing timber from 

the Baltic since the 18th century. 

To make a ludicrous comparison - we could cultivate our own citrus if we built

and heated miles of greenhouses. 
Sorry for butting in - I’m an interested outsider trying to learn about this world. 
 

They used to have miles n miles of greenhouses heated by Drax in Yorkshire for just that. Gone now 🙄  ( went to school right next door *coff coff* ) k

[David Cropper]

9 minutes ago, doobin said:

BJ. snigger 😂

I hope you're not trying for a bit of levity in this very, very serious topic, young man. I've just had a horrible image of the said "BJ" in the throes of ectasty. Snigger.

[Khriss]

Corporal Cropper  !! Eyes Front !   😁 K

[Mr. Ed]

40 minutes ago, doobin said:

BJ. snigger 😂

Whoops! Sorry John.  Ahem. 

[David Cropper]

44 minutes ago, Khriss said:

Corporal Cropper  !! Eyes Front !   😁 K

I've actually poked my eyes out at the thought of it. I am using the medium of Braille to respond. 

[Stere]

I seen some managment with broadleaf some kind contionous cover selective fell scheme where many tubed   replanted trees in clearings mostly died as too shaded (planted species lacked enough shade tolerance) and the self seeders did better than tubed trees, also  the planted trees had too compete with the felled sycamore that coppiced think its hard to get right? Also the oaks get mildew now....

 

Maybe thet had the right idea back in medieval times for broadleaf when they  just coppiced the lot in coupes but left few standard trees instead of selective fell for  mixed broadleaf woodland...

[Squaredy]

As has been said this is a very interesting debate.  I would love some of the guys at Forestry Commission to give a view or two, but I suspect that Big J's final Euc crop will have matured and been harvested before they complete the red tape to allow them to express an opinion.

 

Maybe some of the private forestry firms might like to comment.  I know lots of small estates where native hardwoods are seen as a very valuable crop, but is this because they have been in continuous management for centuries?  Of course one major advantage these estates have is that the land is usually inherited, so in effect it is a free resource for them to utilise.

 

Anyone can see that growing Oak (or even Cherry or Sycamore or others) for a financial return in the UK is a challenge.  But is it really as bleak as BigJ says?

[AHPP]

 
Very interesting points, and I'm entirely in favour of continuous cover, if it's possible. I do do clearfells, but I don't like them. The issue is that the management regime of a woodland needs to be focused on CCF from the outset. You can't decide halfway through a cycle to then switch to CCF and expect it to stay standing.
 
Fundamentally, trees grow best when in a micro-climate, sheltered from prevailing weather. CCF allows for new planting/regeneration to get it's best possible start, but at present the entire forestry model in the UK is plant > thin > thin > clearfell. 
 
As regards eucalyptus, CCF is very doable, but you're working on a much shorter timescale. Given that you can take nitens from planting to final crop in 12 years, intervention can be as often as every 2 years. Coup felling blocks and replanting, whilst still taking advantage of the micro climate is the way I'd do it. I can go into more detail....

Please do.

[Mr. Ed]

56 minutes ago, Big J said:

 

Very interesting points, and I'm entirely in favour of continuous cover, if it's possible. I do do clearfells, but I don't like them. The issue is that the management regime of a woodland needs to be focused on CCF from the outset. You can't decide halfway through a cycle to then switch to CCF and expect it to stay standing.

 

Fundamentally, trees grow best when in a micro-climate, sheltered from prevailing weather. CCF allows for new planting/regeneration to get it's best possible start, but at present the entire forestry model in the UK is plant > thin > thin > clearfell. 

 

As regards eucalyptus, CCF is very doable, but you're working on a much shorter timescale. Given that you can take nitens from planting to final crop in 12 years, intervention can be as often as every 2 years. Coup felling blocks and replanting, whilst still taking advantage of the micro climate is the way I'd do it. I can go into more detail....

I write from Ireland where there’s another interesting angle to it - the clearfell cycle means that the boffins reckon Irish forestry has contributed to CO2 over the last couple of years. Apparently only some 20% of a Forest’s co2 capture is done by the trees and the rest is in the soil. 

[Paul in the woods]

21 minutes ago, Big J said:

Until grey squirrels are irradicated, I can never counternance planting native broadleaves as a crop tree. It's either pointless, or extremely hard work.

As someone with a few acres of young oaks and a few beech I can second this. Before the canopy closed I selected a few dozen good looking oaks to try and prune the stems up a bit. Sadly most have now been badly damaged by grey squirrels so it will be lucky if much firewood is produced let alone anything more useful.

 

I do control them, more out of principle than any thing more constructive as there's hoards of the critters on neighbouring property waiting to move in.  It's a puzzle why they aren't regarded more like rabbits or rats and legislation put in place to force people to control them. Sadly the opposite seems to be true and most people regard them as cute wildlife that shouldn't be touched.

 

If we are going down the rewilding route, then doesn't that mean leaving mature trees to age, fall naturally and decompose rather than harvest them? And surely for areas to be wild that would mean reduced public access? Most people round here for example seem to regard woodlands as dog toilets and areas to let their hounds chase anything that moves.