Covid-19

[Johnsond]

49 minutes ago, Big J said:

 

I'd make the argument that society as we knew it has been largely destroyed anyway. 

 

We've killed off physical shops, the hospitality sector, our children's social lives and by extension, their development. We've entrenched an attitude of government dependency, ruined what little work ethic we had before and left ourselves and our children indebted for decades to come. 

 

I really do think that our public health outcome would not have been any worse had we simply isolated and shielded our old and vulnerable. Yes it would have been crap for them, and it would have seemed unfair, but apart from the fact that others in society would have freedoms that they didn't have, how would a targeted lockdown be any different for them to what they have now? Lumping everyone in the same risk group doesn't make sense from a public health perspective, and from an economic standpoint, it's a disaster.

 

I agree that the cost of covid is tragic (in terms of lives lost) but you have to ask the question - how many of those that died were already in declining health? How much longer would they have lived? I'm really trying not to appear callous about it, but I do fully expect to see a lower than average death rate for the next few years as the (slightly) premature deaths from covid balance out against the long term death rate. 

 

The ever spiralling limits on our personal liberties and the continued insistence from the government of using executive decree (rather than laws scrutinised by parliament) is deeply concerning. Once we're all vaccinated, we really do need to get back to some sort of normal.  

Very well put J 👍

[Mesterh]

12 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

So its an ethical dilemma and not one of necessity after all?  

'Apart from not being able to shield the vulnerable'

Seems like you failed to read that bit.

 

But yes, ethics and morals should come into play. I know you aren't really bothered about that as 'most of the covid victims were going to die anyway'  your words not mine.

[trigger_andy]

6 minutes ago, Mesterh said:

But yes, ethics and morals should come into play. I know you aren't really bothered about that as 'most of the covid victims were going to die anyway'  your words not mine.

But the sad reality is they are! Its just a cold hard fact. 

 

We're so focused on the ethics of shielding the people who are on average 82 years or older over the ravages we're doing to the young and I find that grossly out of proportion and wrong. 

 

My 17 year old is at a very critical point in her education and her acceptance into Medical School to train as a Doctor hinges on her grades this year. How well do you think that's going from her bedroom? She was a previously outgoing girl who studied hard but still found the odd hour for her friends. Now she's a depressed wreck. 

 

My three year old has had no interaction with anyone her age for almost a third of her life, the very stages she needs to be. She seen a woman walk past the house and she asked if that was maybe a friend for her.  

 

To say that I am seething even thinking about this is an understatement thats constantly brought to the fore when I see my work collogues here in Norway proponing meetings as they are dropping the kids off at barnehage. 

 

And not one person here has come up with an even remotely valid reason other than ''its different over there'' for why the approaches in Norway and the UK are vastly different and yet the infections rates are still lower than the UK. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by trigger_andy

[Mull]

But the sad reality is they are! Its just a cold hard fact. 
 
We're so focused on the ethics of shielding the people who are on average 82 years or older over the ravages we're doing to the young and I find that grossly out of proportion and wrong. 
 
My 17 year old is at a very critical point in her education and her acceptance into Medical School to train as a Doctor hinges on her grades this year. How well do you think that's going from her bedroom? She was a previously outgoing girl who studied hard but still found the odd hour for her friends. Now she's a depressed wreck. 
 
My three year old has had no interaction with anyone her age for almost a third of her life, the very stages she needs to be. She seen a woman walk past the house and she asked if that was maybe a friend for her.  
 
To say that I am seething even thinking about this is an understatement thats constantly brought to the fore when I see my work collogues here in Norway proponing meetings as they are dropping the kids off at barnehage. 
 
And not one person here has come up with an even remotely valid reason other than ''its different over there'' for why the approaches in Norway and the UK are vastly different and yet the infections rates are still lower than the UK. 

Yeah, I understand your point Andy, I don’t see why they are keeping these people alive just now? When it’s obviously depriving your daughter from being educated on how to keep them alive.🤷‍♂️

[Johnsond]

Just now, Mull said:

 

Yeah, I understand your point Andy, I don’t see why they are keeping these people alive just now? When it’s obviously depriving your daughter from being educated on how to keep them alive.🤷‍♂️

 

Very very poor in every way. 

[trigger_andy]

Just now, Mull said:

 

Yeah, I understand your point Andy, I don’t see why they are keeping these people alive just now? When it’s obviously depriving your daughter from being educated on how to keep them alive.🤷‍♂️

 

We're destroying the lives of our children for the sake of the ones who have already lived theirs. 

[trigger_andy]

Just now, Johnsond said:

Very very poor in every way. 

Its the best retort you could expect from someone who votes SNP.  

 

The irony is a whole generation of potential Doctors chosen (altruistic) career paths could be on the rocks and unable to care for the lives of everyone, not just the very old. 

[Mull]

 
The irony is a whole generation of potential Doctors chosen (altruistic) career paths could be on the rocks and unable to care for the lives of everyone, not just the very old. 

COVID is a severe blip on the planet Andy, as were other plagues and world wars, it’s tough times, just ask Boris. So, someone studying to be a doctor at the moment is now f***ed?? Hahaha, you’re a wee drama queen Andy boy, along with your mates on here.

[Mesterh]

5 minutes ago, Big J said:

 

I take your point, but given that the risk of severe illness and death is highest amongst those who are oldest and most unwell, is it really justifiable to lock away the rest of us too? Is there not an ethical dilemma there also? 

 

Also, could it be argued that the ethical implications of targeted lockdowns are not as serious as the ethical implications of crippling our economy, bankrupting our government and knackering the educational and social development of our children? 

 

The argument of fairness goes both ways. Is it fair to seriously restrict the liberty of a person who is at very low risk of complications relating to covid? How is this better than a targeted approach? 

Well for one we need to define who is vulnerable, that list could be very long if you start taking long covid victims into account and if you do how do you identify them for a start. If we are protecting them by locking them away then we have to lock away the people they live with and their careers, that's going to be a hell of a lot of people not going to work, not going to school not going anywhere. Who atm is locked away, I'm not you're not and a good proportion of the UK aren't confined to their house atm so there is no ethical dilemma there.

 

As we all lockdowns are bad for the reasons you describe but surely this has been weighed up against the outcome if there wasn't lockdowns by the people who specialise in economics and health care, we aren't qualified to make those decisions. 

 

As it's already been mentioned it's not all about the numbers of people who die of covid it's the impact it would have if huge numbers of people where infected at the same time.

 

None of us here are qualified to make these decisions, yes we can speculate and debate them but really none of us have a clue on the best course to take for the greater good. 

 

I wouldn't trust the advice from half the people on here on how to fell an elderberry in my back garden and it's an arb forum.

[trigger_andy]

Just now, Mull said:

 

 

COVID is a severe blip on the planet Andy, as were other plagues and world wars, it’s tough times, just ask Boris. So, someone studying to be a doctor at the moment is now f***ed?? Hahaha, you’re a wee drama queen Andy boy, along with your mates on here.

 

 

One day you can say that to my face and Im looking forward to that.