paradigm shift wanted

[Khriss]

On 05/02/2020 at 08:42, Gary Prentice said:

Usually quite carefully, cos they're used to being in a position with limited means of escape. 

....an ever one else stands MUCH further back ? k

[trigger_andy]

On 05/02/2020 at 08:03, Steve Bullman said:

Training videos are meant to show the best practise for doing anything. I don't believe any 'educator' with an ounce of common sense is going to divert from these things. Its up to individuals to find their way through on the job experience in the field.

I can relate this this. I'm a certified training instructor and rater in the job I do. When I get round to holding a class some of the guys on the course are guys that work with me off-shore. Im very careful to ensure that the training I give them are per procedure. Sometimes they moan and complain that this is not how its done off-shore, or even how I do it off-shore.  I tell them that regardless how I do the job off-shore Im here to teach them the 100% correct way we should be doing things, it will then be up to them how the carry out the job when off-shore. But if they screw up they cant turn around and tell anyone thats how I trained them on the course. 

[wicklamulla]

if the space is a bit tight and i'm concerned the limb will drop too quickly for me to get the chainsaw out of the way so as to avoid cutting the rigging line the YES i will use a silky to finish the cut as i can withdraw that in a more controlled and swifter manner. It's all to easy to nick ropes with a chainsaw or silky so i do my best in every situation so as to avoid it. 

[dadio]

On 06/02/2020 at 06:53, wicklamulla said:

if the space is a bit tight and i'm concerned the limb will drop too quickly for me to get the chainsaw out of the way so as to avoid cutting the rigging line the YES i will use a silky to finish the cut as i can withdraw that in a more controlled and swifter manner. It's all to easy to nick ropes with a chainsaw or silky so i do my best in every situation so as to avoid it. 

That's where good cutting technique and goor rigging come together. If you use a rip cut (no gob or undercut) then the piece is going to come off real slowly and give plenty of warning as the fibers begin to tear. Also the placement of the overhead rigging point helps if it is a bit off the stem. This was demonstrated in a large stub in the video.

 

I think it's not too much to expect a higher level of expertise to be shared in training videos. There are a lot of variables to consider in tree work. Using the least common denominator (this cut works in all situations) maybe the easiest and safest way to provide training, but it results in a sub-par product. A more complete description of more variables would serve the industry. There is very little explanation of "why". Instead we get teachers saying do it this way and an industry full of teachers and trainers that parrot the teachings without understanding the "Why". Then its up to the individual to figure the rest out by himself. 
 

 

We can debate the reasons for such poor quality training material in the tree care industry. Is it because they don't really understand the distinctions necessary to provide a better product, or they don't care, as there is limited competition and they are doing just fine with such poor products, or is it simply a matter of trying to avoid liability. Who knows. BUt I can tell you one thing. There is not ONE person teaching college courses on arboriculture that has the skill and ability of a world class climber/rigger/faller. 

[dadio]

This video both demonstrates and explains the combined use of the rip cut (into the shoulder leaving NO STUBS) with well placed overhead rigging point and tie off points on the limb getting lowered. Do you think Arbomaster, the ISA or any other training organization has or will ever show this type of work. I'd call it technical except its actually far more simple than the teachings of undercuts, wing cuts, and finishing with the hand saw. 

 

 

[carlos]

im not sure just back cutting limbs is " next higher level techniques"!! 

sure i do it and it works on certain stuff, but i wouldnt recomend it to a learner as there are a lot of variables that are hard to explain.

also cutting from a bucket truck and climbing are different in terms of proximeter of the piece being cut.

every tree worker starts to deviate and experiment from what they were taught on courses.

 i learn something every day i go to work, so kind of hard to put all that into a short course.

i think your a bit harsh and rude regarding the level of skill in trainers, !!! does your driving instructor need to be and ex world rally champion????

slagging others to promote oneself is always a dubious approach imo.

still ive watched plenty of your vids and learnt and enjoyed them.

carl

[dadio]

why are they hard to explain?

 

If your lanyard or climbing line is under the cut, use an undercut. If the limb has a rise of over 35 degrees, it can split and lift, similar to a barber chair, and potentially come down on you, so use an undercut. If the limb is long and heavy enough to split, it can pinch the bar, so use an undercut. Species that split easily are more prone to split during a rip cut, so adjust your cutting technique accordingly. 

[The avantgardener]

On 07/02/2020 at 14:02, dadio said:

BUt I can tell you one thing. There is not ONE person teaching college courses on arboriculture that has the skill and ability of a world class climber/rigger/faller. 

A lazy generalisation and quite frankly, a load of shit. I can list individuals who are multiple world champion climbers and teach advanced Arboriculture practice here in the UK.

[dadio]

names please?

 

[MattyF]

I was taught to straight cut through in rigging if the conditions suited at merrist wood back in 95 so it is or was taught in British Arb colleges.. to be fair I think at that time it was renowned for being one of the best colleges for arboriculture in the world and had some very good staff.

I think also straight through cuts where in the original nptcs for arial cutting so it’s nothing new say us brits ... or the old ones anyway!