Should a referendum on Scottish independence only include people living in Scotland?

[trigger_andy]

2 hours ago, Richard 1234 said:

That makes me wonder why they want to bin us but keep the EU?

How much trade does the UK do with the EU? A lot I assume yet we wish to 'bin' them. But we're gonna keep trading with EU countries right? The UK is not leaving Europe, we just dont wish to be dictated to by them, right?

 

Now replace the UK with Scotland and the EU with England. 

[Richard 1234]

25 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

How much trade does the UK do with the EU? A lot I assume yet we wish to 'bin' them. But we're gonna keep trading with EU countries right? The UK is not leaving Europe, we just dont wish to be dictated to by them, right?

 

Now replace the UK with Scotland and the EU with England. 

Fair point. It’s Kranky that is pushing the economic point of staying in the EU (that’s the main thing I have heard from her anyway might well be different up there) yet wanting out the UK who is a bigger trading partner. 
it wouldn’t bother me if Scotland went alone. I don’t see any reason not to from either side personally.

[aspenarb]

46 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

But its not included in Scotland GDP as far as Im aware? Its only one thing off the top of my head. There is bound to be other things like this.  

I dont buy into that nor do I think we should rely on Whisky remaining popular forever, even if currently its increasing in popularity year on year. 

Merely pointing out that revenue from scotch is way down on the list and is not without some serious competition from the Japs. Take a squint.

The Growth of Global Demand for Japanese Whisky | Market Research Blog

BLOG.EUROMONITOR.COM

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Though demand growth of Japanese whisky remains strong in Japan, interest is quickly building elsewhere, rising at an...

 

46 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

We'll have to. As long as Norway is building more and more Platforms in this market, in the same sea, your opinion is invalid. 

 

 It really is a sink or swim market just now, or was. I did mention serious cut backs where needed and implemented during the depth of the down turn. If your mates company could not keep afloat, like loads of others they close down. Its all about streamlining just now and will continue to be. We're busier than ever right now installing new wells. Flat out. But in Norway of course.  

The company my friend works for had done their sums and pressed the go button at a time when crude was on a high, its only a few million of investors money, probably some poor sods pension fund.

 

Norway has a different agenda Andy, they hold over a $trillion in a sovereign wealth fund and have $37 billion tied up in oil company shares. Norway is an oil company , they are saving for the inevitable rainy day.

 

Also worth noting that most of the UK governments revenue from oil is from fuel duty, that wont change no matter who supplies it.

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

 

[trigger_andy]

16 minutes ago, aspenarb said:

Merely pointing out that revenue from scotch is way down on the list and is not without some serious competition from the Japs. Take a squint.

I understand Jap Whisky is taking off, I really dont see it taking the place of Scottish Single Malts, English, Welsh and Irish Whiskey/Whisky have their market share and have done so for years and have hardly made a dent in Scottish Whisky. But I qualified my stance by stating that we should not expect that demand to increase or remain in fashion indefinitely. 

 

21 minutes ago, aspenarb said:

The company my friend works for had done their sums and pressed the go button at a time when crude was on a high, its only a few million of investors money, probably some poor sods pension fund.

If they did their sums when crude was at its peak and never budgeted for a periodic slump then they are as good at maths as I am. The only poor sods who invest in start-ups have money to lose. High risk investments are just that.

 

24 minutes ago, aspenarb said:

Norway has a different agenda Andy, they hold over a $trillion in a sovereign wealth fund and have $37 billion tied up in oil company shares. Norway is an oil company , they are saving for the inevitable rainy day.

 

In what way does Norway have a different agenda? Thats ridiculous. Scotland would very much like to have the same agenda. Norway is planning on running these new platforms for the next 40 years. That's another 40 years from first oil. Can you imagine where Scotland would be in 40 years if we did the same? We dont just have the North sea, we're surrounded by untapped oil reserves. There is nothing at all stopping an independent Scotland also being an 'Oil Company', Aberdeen is after all the 'Oil Capital' of Europe. 

 

But although the Government have a controlling share in Statoil (now Equinor) thats not the only Oil Company operating. Conoco Philips, BP, Lundin, Shell, ENI and a load of others all operate and make a profit working off the Norwegian Continental Shelf. Thats paying vasty greater wages to the Employee's, upholding much higher standards off-shore and paying a load in tax to the Government. 

 

There is nothing you can say regarding how Norway runs its Oil Reserves that cant just as easily be applied to Scotland. 

 

31 minutes ago, aspenarb said:

Also worth noting that most of the UK governments revenue from oil is from fuel duty, that wont change no matter who supplies it.

I simply do not believe that. Im sure you can show me plenty of links backing this up but I simply do not believe it. If Norway can do it Scotland can too. There is no way the same oil companies are paying much more in tax to Norway yet plead poverty in the UK and dont have to pay the same. The investment will not go, because they are still investing heavily in Norway drilling the same shelf and extracting the same oil. All with higher operating costs. It plays far to much into Westminsters hands to make the Oil Industry seem unprofitable and waning. They have done this from day 1. Released Labour documents highlight this. Far too many fall for it. 

[aspenarb]

Here are some figures Andy, North sea oil and gas netted the uk gov £I.2billion ( all in) last year and from what I have read its one of the most difficult in the world to extract. I have no clue why Norway is more successful, need to be mindful that its not governments or the Scottish people that drill for oil so I can only assume its more viable from the Norwegian waters.

• North Sea revenue UK 2008-2019 | Statista

WWW.STATISTA.COM

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This statistic shows the United Kingdom's North Sea revenue from 2008/09 to 2018/19.

 

That £1.2billion is completely dwarfed by the £27.9billion the UK government milked out of us in fuel duty, Vat also goes on top of that which not everyone claims back. As I said that figure wont change because its whacked on no matter who supplies it.

 

• HMRC fuel duty receipts 2019 | Statista

WWW.STATISTA.COM

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This statistic shows the total United Kingdom (UK) HMRC fuel duty receipts from fiscal year 2000/01 to fiscal year 2018/19.

 

Personally I think SNP are playing a dangerous game , they are prepared to risk losing the confidence of UK investors which may have serious repercussions on £50billion worth of trade we do with Scotland. I know its not all about the money.

 

Bob

[trigger_andy]

11 hours ago, aspenarb said:

Here are some figures Andy, North sea oil and gas netted the uk gov £I.2billion ( all in) last year and from what I have read its one of the most difficult in the world to extract. I have no clue why Norway is more successful, need to be mindful that its not governments or the Scottish people that drill for oil so I can only assume its more viable from the Norwegian waters.

• North Sea revenue UK 2008-2019 | Statista

WWW.STATISTA.COM

---

This statistic shows the United Kingdom's North Sea revenue from 2008/09 to 2018/19.

 

That £1.2billion is completely dwarfed by the £27.9billion the UK government milked out of us in fuel duty, Vat also goes on top of that which not everyone claims back. As I said that figure wont change because its whacked on no matter who supplies it.

 

• HMRC fuel duty receipts 2019 | Statista

WWW.STATISTA.COM

---

This statistic shows the total United Kingdom (UK) HMRC fuel duty receipts from fiscal year 2000/01 to fiscal year 2018/19.

 

Personally I think SNP are playing a dangerous game , they are prepared to risk losing the confidence of UK investors which may have serious repercussions on £50billion worth of trade we do with Scotland. I know its not all about the money.

 

Bob

Like I wrote earlier, I simply do not believe those figures. Call its a conspiracy theory and laugh but I firmly believe that these numbers are a pure fabrication. The Oil Companies working in cahoots with the Government 'losing' surveys in the Firth of Clyde, the constant and down playing of the reserves still there, Westminster uncovered documents relating to this and how the North Sea Oil propped up the UK's Credit Rating and how the Government was petrified Scotland would go it alone and take their Oil with them. If you want links then Id have to spend ages find them all again.

 

Yes, the North Sea is one of the most challenging places to Drill in the World, or at least was in the 70's. A Whole new way of Building Platforms was needed and the tech involved was akin to putting man into space. (So Ive read and see on Documentaries on Oil) Seems a bit over the top but shows the challenges they faced. 

 

But the actual Oil Extraction in the North Sea is relatively straight forward. Brent Crude is a light sweet crude, one of two global benchmarks for oil prices. Its a mix of UK and Norwegian Oil. 

 

The Norwegian sector of the North Sea is not any more viable than the UK/Scottish Sector. Its the same shelf, the same formations and same Oil. The difference between the UK Sector and the Norwegian Sector is purely Political. We're told here in the UK its running out so not worth bothering about anymore, Norway is still building Platforms that are designed to last 40 years plus. Keeping in Mind the Platforms built in the 70's, 80's and 90's had a shelf life for only 20 years and have been pushed past that every decade. 

 

We now have the technology to extract marginal reserves and reserves in shallow pay zones, as little as 10 meters deep via horizontal drilling. ESP (Electronic Suction Pumps) produce low pressure fields, Water injection to get a fields natural pressure back up again after extensive production and for fracking. Fracking propants, Multi-Lateral Completions, Sand Screens, Intelligent Completions (where I come in) What was considered not worth recovering 10-20 years ago is more than viable and Fields that where seens as running down are back up to 1980's levels. 

 

I have Supervised the installation two of three of the only MIC Completions currently in the World on the Grane Platform. Each of these Wells is producing over 20,000 barrels a day. Over Christmas we'll be doing the third there. Since I started in Halliburton in 1998 all Ive done is work directly in the Oil Industry 'at the coal face'. Seems like half my adult life has been spent on the Drill Floor in the UK, Internationally and for the last 12 years in Norway. 

 

So feel free to post more links you've found on-line but they simply do not tally up with the reality I've sen for the last 20 years.

 

I do agree, the SNP are playing a dangerous game. But no when it comes to Oil. Whatever your views on Scotland 'losing the confidence' of UK Investors can quite easily be scaled up to the UK losing the confidence of global investors due to Brexit, yet we're happy to take that risk. 

[agrimog]

trigger andy, they do not like being told the truth, we scots cant look after ourselves, we are too small, too poor, too stupid, etc, the whole population has been lied too for 300 years, and they are still brainwashing the population and lying to it, even when you quote actuall independantly verrified facts , they still deny it, and as for a dislike for the SNP, yes, once independance is in place, everyone can vote for who they like, thats the beauty of an independant  nation, your not dictated to by another bunch of lying greedy idiots hell bent on making there fortune off your back, I still find it very strange the amount of uk residents that shout out in favour of other small countries asking to become indipendant, but scream at us saying we cant, were stupid, etc, in the big picture an awfull lot of the worlds already saying that they will support and trade with an independant scotland, the time is right for the break,       saor alba

[trigger_andy]

43 minutes ago, agrimog said:

trigger andy, they do not like being told the truth, we scots cant look after ourselves, we are too small, too poor, too stupid, etc, the whole population has been lied too for 300 years, and they are still brainwashing the population and lying to it, even when you quote actuall independantly verrified facts , they still deny it, and as for a dislike for the SNP, yes, once independance is in place, everyone can vote for who they like, thats the beauty of an independant  nation, your not dictated to by another bunch of lying greedy idiots hell bent on making there fortune off your back, I still find it very strange the amount of uk residents that shout out in favour of other small countries asking to become indipendant, but scream at us saying we cant, were stupid, etc, in the big picture an awfull lot of the worlds already saying that they will support and trade with an independant scotland, the time is right for the break,       saor alba

I agree with most of what you're saying but there is no way I could vote for the SNP, or independence with remaining, or re-joining the EU not only on the table but the driving force of their plans. There would be a political vacuum left after 'independence' that no party could fill. The SNP would run Scotland into the ground. 

[agrimog]

I voted to leave, the original  EEC is not what it has become, open border trading is, and was a good idea, a group of idiots trying to set rules for different countries is not, we were all sold out by the Mastricht treaty , and have been lied to ever since. and much as I voted snp, I do not fully agree with there current policies, I do however believe the people behinf the scenes, the faceless men, who actually make the descissions can be trusted to do the right thing when it comes to our future.......you didnt think for a minute sturgeon was actually coming up with all the good stuff

 

[Baldbloke]

How much trade does the UK do with the EU? A lot I assume yet we wish to 'bin' them. But we're gonna keep trading with EU countries right? The UK is not leaving Europe, we just dont wish to be dictated to by them, right?  

Now replace the UK with Scotland and the EU with England. 

 

 

U.K. exports to EU = £289 billion (46% of all U.K. exports)

U.K. imports from EU = £345 billion

(54% of all U.K. imports)

 

So we import more than we export to the EU, and the bulk of our business (in spite of being presently tethered to the EU) is out with of the EU, AND based on WTO terms. Now we’re almost out it should be possible to to improve our export terms through trade deals (for the bulk of our trade) and hopefully strike a deal with the EU for our existing business. It should be remembered that doing trade deals while being a EU member is disallowed.

Additionally the EU would be the net losers were we to leave without agreement. A win win in my mind.....