Should a referendum on Scottish independence only include people living in Scotland?

[Guest Gimlet]

1 hour ago, trigger_andy said:

 

It might be almost insurmountable to move it outside of Scotland. Where else in the UK is there such deep Fjord-like 'firths'? The Clyde is the deepest at 164m. But then maybe the UK should be much more grateful that we house it for them? Not just a token 'thank you' but an entire step-change away from seeing Scotland as a parasite on the UK, it does piss many people off. Im not sure how much revenue having it where it is actually brings? Some for sure, but I feel not that much. 

 

But its just another reason in my mind why Westminster is petrified about losing its control of Scotland. 

 

Id have to look on-line again as regards the blocking of the development of the Oil Fields in the Firth of Clyde and Scotland's portion of the Irish Sea.  A quick google brought this interesting article up;

 

WWW.BUSINESSFORSCOTLAND.COM

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The Scottish Government has confirmed that oil exploration off south-west Scotland could go ahead post-independence...

 

Did MoD block oil boom in the Firth of Clyde? - Sunday Post

WWW.SUNDAYPOST.COM

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A potential North Sea-style oil boom off the Ayrshire coast was blocked by worried defence chiefs, a former MP has claimed.

 

Barrow in Furness in too shallow but Devonport, Milford Haven, Falmouth and Portland are all deep enough to accommodate the Trident fleet. Devonport is the largest naval base in western Europe and housed the Trafalgar class subs up until 2017. It has all the infrastructure and more ready and waiting.

 

The problems of relocation are political and logistical. Moving them to Milford Haven would likely see Welsh nationalists politicising the issue in the same way the SNP are doing. Devonport is far more heavily populated than Faslane or Gareloch and the safety factor when loading warheads is always cited by opponents. 

Falmouth, Milford Haven and Portland are too far away from ammunition depots which the MOD stipulate must be within one hour of the dock. (As a former deep water naval base Portland would have been ideal but the whole area is an object lesson in wasted opportunity. The waterfront has been developed for housing and leisure - despite there being very little employment on the Isle of Portland and only one causeway road on and off, so extra commuters have only added to the gridlock in neighbouring Weymouth -  so restoring the site to a working deep water port, whether naval of commercial, is now impossible).

 

These things need not be insurmountable but it's politics and logistics rather than geography and geology that are the problems.

The subs ended up in Scotland because the site was sparsely populated and the area needed the work. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Gimlet

[aspenarb]

I am struggling to understand why the SNP are so keen to part company from the UK, something like 75% of all investments in Scottish industry have come from south of the border. We are by far their biggest trading partner and the UK last year alone topped up the Scottish tax revenue shortfall of £941m with £737m of our hard earned. From where I am sat all this uncertainty alone could have a damaging effect on future investment in Scotland and a potentially massive threat with industry relocation  . Am I missing something or are they just hell bent financial suicide

 

Bob

 

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by aspenarb

[Richard 1234]

3 minutes ago, aspenarb said:

I am struggling to understand why the SNP are so keen to part company from the UK, something like 75% of all investments in Scottish industry have come from south of the border. We are by far their biggest trading partner and the UK last year alone topped up the Scottish tax revenue shortfall of £941m with £737m of our hard earned. From where I am sat all this uncertainty alone could have a damaging effect on future investment in Scotland and a potentially massive threat with industry relocation  . Am I missing something or are they just hell bent financial suicide

 

Bob

 

 

That makes me wonder why they want to bin us but keep the EU?

[trigger_andy]

I am struggling to understand why the SNP are so keen to part company from the UK, something like 75% of all investments in Scottish industry have come from south of the border. We are by far their biggest trading partner and the UK last year alone topped up the Scottish tax revenue shortfall of £941m with £737m of our hard earned. From where I am sat all this uncertainty alone could have a damaging effect on future investment in Scotland and a potentially massive threat with industry relocation  . Am I missing something or are they just hell bent financial suicide
 
Bob
 
 

Oil and gas revenues generated in Scotland are not included there are they?

What about revenue generated from the sales of Whisky?

Take away our biggest revenue earners, block further revenue generation by forcing Trident on us then have the cheek to say you bail us out?

[aspenarb]

47 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

 

Oil and gas revenues generated in Scotland are not included there are they?

What about revenue generated from the sales of Whisky?

Take away our biggest revenue earners, block further revenue generation by forcing Trident on us then have the cheek to say you bail us out?

 

Not sure about the oil Andy, I do know that the oil has no future all the time the hayrabs keep the barrel price where it is and by the time that changes world oil consumption will be virtually nil, they are determined sell all they can before the party is over. Investment packages in North Sea oil were established when the barrel price was through the  roof , a lot of companies involved are there now making massive losses but committed to produce. A friend of mine who is at the sharp end reckons  they are finding huge land based reserves of gas and oil around the world on a daily basis. Don’t think Scotland should hinge its future on oil,I don’t think whiskey is all that clever now.

 

Bob

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by aspenarb
Bobs got fat fingers

[Johnsond]

5 hours ago, Mull said:

 

Missed this post till now, when I asked if you were the English one johnsond, I was trying to establish whether it was you or baldbloke, as you both appeared about the same time with similar arguments (at least on the posts I was looking at). I guess I need not have asked the question and if I offended you then I wholeheartedly and genuinely apologise. I live on an island with a high percentage of English people and it would be a poorer place without them.




And as for you, you can pi** off you Scottish pr**k

 

No offence taken 

just fed up big time with politics and politicians 

[trigger_andy]

9 minutes ago, aspenarb said:

Not sure about the oil Andy, I do know that the oil has no future all the time the hayrabs keep the barrel price where it is and by the time that changes world oil consumption will be virtually nil, they are determined sell all they can before the party is over. Investment packages in North Sea oil were established when the barrel price was through the  roof , a lot of companies involved are there now making massive losses but committed to produce. A friend of mine who is at the sharp end reckons  they are finding huge land based reserves of gas and oil around the world on a daily basis. Don’t think Scotland should hinge its future on oil,I don’t think whiskey is all that clever now.

 

Bob

 

Im sorry but I do not agree with this assessment in the slightest. Ive explained in another thread why OPEC started the latest Oil Crisis and it was purely to do with Fracking in the US and OPECS desire to squash it. They opened the flood gates and the price dropped through the floor. OPECS intention of bankrupting the Frackers almost worked but in the end OPEC blinked first, they could not sustain giving the oil away at that price so they closed the taps in a little. 

 

In the meantime Oil Companies and Oil Service companies tightened their belts and heavily reduced operating costs. Break even per barrel is still the lowest in OPEC Countries but we're not far behind now. 

 

Now, it would be much more difficult to argue my point against you where it not for Norway and Denmark operating in the very same North Sea. In Norway we have 2 weeks off-shore 4 week off rotations almost across the board. We even have Women doing 50% of this 2 weeks off-shore and 8 weeks off due to maternity leave. I work less than 150 days a year for significantly more than I would earn in the UK Sector where I was working 250 days a year. We have Single Man Cabins, free Silver and Knives at the Clubs, Bingo with free Ipads etc every week, Steak twice a week yet Norway is still making huge profits. In the UK Sector you're lucky to get a packet of Digestives. Norway is building more and more Platforms and their shiny new Platforms are state of the art. Yet their costs are low and show no intention of slowing down.

 

Its simply the Politics of the UK massaging the numbers to make us believe that Oil in the UK sector is dead. What your mates told you simply does not tally up with the huge expansion in Norway. Where Scotland to see the same expansion right now the demand for Indi#2 would be through the roof. Keeping a lid on our reserves has been the best trick Westminster has in controlling us. Its almost been running out for the last 40 years. There is loads of reserves left in the North Sea, the Irish Sea and West of Shetland. But I guess your mate knows best....

 

 

 

 

Your assessment of Scotch Whisky is also laughable. 

 

Whiskey sales booming as demand surges - Chinadaily.com.cn

WWW.CHINADAILY.COM.CN

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Demand from the increasingly urbanized and high-income population, evolving tastes and consumption upgrade is...

 

 

[aspenarb]

36 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

Im sorry but I do not agree with this assessment in the slightest. Ive explained in another thread why OPEC started the latest Oil Crisis and it was purely to do with Fracking in the US and OPECS desire to squash it. They opened the flood gates and the price dropped through the floor. OPECS intention of bankrupting the Frackers almost worked but in the end OPEC blinked first, they could not sustain giving the oil away at that price so they closed the taps in a little. 

 

In the meantime Oil Companies and Oil Service companies tightened their belts and heavily reduced operating costs. Break even per barrel is still the lowest in OPEC Countries but we're not far behind now. 

 

Now, it would be much more difficult to argue my point against you where it not for Norway and Denmark operating in the very same North Sea. In Norway we have 2 weeks off-shore 4 week off rotations almost across the board. We even have Women doing 50% of this 2 weeks off-shore and 8 weeks off due to maternity leave. I work less than 150 days a year for significantly more than I would earn in the UK Sector where I was working 250 days a year. We have Single Man Cabins, free Silver and Knives at the Clubs, Bingo with free Ipads etc every week, Steak twice a week yet Norway is still making huge profits. In the UK Sector you're lucky to get a packet of Digestives. Norway is building more and more Platforms and their shiny new Platforms are state of the art. Yet their costs are low and show no intention of slowing down.

 

Its simply the Politics of the UK massaging the numbers to make us believe that Oil in the UK sector is dead. What your mates told you simply does not tally up with the huge expansion in Norway. Where Scotland to see the same expansion right now the demand for Indi#2 would be through the roof. Keeping a lid on our reserves has been the best trick Westminster has in controlling us. Its almost been running out for the last 40 years. There is loads of reserves left in the North Sea, the Irish Sea and West of Shetland. But I guess your mate knows best....

 

 

 

 

Your assessment of Scotch Whisky is also laughable. 

 

Whiskey sales booming as demand surges - Chinadaily.com.cn

WWW.CHINADAILY.COM.CN

---

Demand from the increasingly urbanized and high-income population, evolving tastes and consumption upgrade is...

 

 

 

My assessment of Scotch whiskey is based on what it brings in, it only accounts for £4.3billion out of Scotlands £80billion gdp, the revenue from the governments perspective will be a lot less than that. Most Scotsman will have you believe that the revenue from Scotch is propping up the uk economy. As for the oil I think we.can agree to disagree, my friends company has now closed it’s Aberdeen office along with many others and the won’t be coming back anytime soon.

 

Bob

[Guest Gimlet]

Bit of an underestimate there. Scotland's GDP for 2018 was £180 billion (for comparison England's was £2.1 trillion).

 

Total Scotch whisky sales for 2018 were £4.7 billion. Not to be sneezed at but still only 2.6% of GDP. Scotland ain't gonna live on that.  

[trigger_andy]

16 minutes ago, aspenarb said:

My assessment of Scotch whiskey is based on what it brings in, it only accounts for £4.3billion out of Scotlands £80billion gdp,

But its not included in Scotland GDP as far as Im aware? Its only one thing off the top of my head. There is bound to be other things like this.  

17 minutes ago, aspenarb said:

Most Scotsman will have you believe that the revenue from Scotch is propping up the uk economy.

I dont buy into that nor do I think we should rely on Whisky remaining popular forever, even if currently its increasing in popularity year on year. 

 

23 minutes ago, aspenarb said:

As for the oil I think we.can agree to disagree,

We'll have to. As long as Norway is building more and more Platforms in this market, in the same sea, your opinion is invalid. 

 

24 minutes ago, aspenarb said:

my friends company has now closed it’s Aberdeen office along with many others and the won’t be coming back anytime soon.

 It really is a sink or swim market just now, or was. I did mention serious cut backs where needed and implemented during the depth of the down turn. If your mates company could not keep afloat, like loads of others they close down. Its all about streamlining just now and will continue to be. We're busier than ever right now installing new wells. Flat out. But in Norway of course.