Two-rope Working - an update

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

13 minutes ago, Rich Rule said:

This is a question for Paul or HSE reading this ...  

 

I have heard in the past that if an Employer sends out an employee with inadequate kit, no LOLER etc and there is an accident.  If the HSE get involved then the employer can be prosecuted.

 

However, if the same employer has the same accident with the same Kit they would be exempt from prosecution by the HSE as they are the director of the company.

 

Will this be the same situation if a director investigated by the HSE for not following the new guidelines?

Hi Rich,

 

As the HASWA and the regs, incl. W@H etc., apply to both employers and self-employed there is, at least in theory, a risk of prosecution. Further, and technically, a Director is an employee of the business.

[Rich Rule]

Thanks for that Paul.

 

A number of years ago a good friend of mine had a serious fall and broke several bones, pelvis, ribs leg/ankle.  He was airlifted to hospital.  I was contracting elsewhere but got a call later that day.  I went to site and had to sort the mess out after the investigators had arrived and police had closed the area off.

 

All his kit was taken away for investigation.  I was told afterwards that there would not be taking it further as he was the director of the company.  Yet, had a employee had a similar accident they would have been grounds for prosecution. 
 

I must add, that the two suits from the HSE who were responsible for the investigation didn’t have a background in treework and didn’t really have a grasp of what was going on and what had happened.

[Paul201t]

On 03/12/2019 at 18:49, warren said:

Well I bit the bullet and tried it today on a small beech.

 

I used a zz on ddrt and a hitch climber/wrench on srt and a strop.

 

The setup was as faff as I haven't done srt for a long time (I normally go straight for the zz).

 

Accessed the tree via a ladder, ropes dangling every which way. 

 

I had the srt set up with a cambium saver/carabiner so I could advance it and it was right at the top of the rope so I use it as a strop climbing up. (I could have just put a crab thou the spliced eye and used it that way).

 

Advance each system to the top. Rope guide for the ddrt and top tie the srt on separate limbs.

 

I had to climb above the anchor point to reduce the top which was a pain with slackening off the 2 systems and used the strop for work positioning.

 

Once back under the anchor points it was just like doing a limb walk with 2 ropes. Trouble is I felt so safe I didn't feel the need for the strop (which I think defeats the object of the exercise).

Rope management-wise it was a small tree so minimal friction on the ddrt setup but I think I may go for 2*srt systems.

 

negatives .... My tree overhung the direct path to the chipper so the groundy had a fine time dodging ropes. And dragging them with the brush but that's just the position the tree was in. 

 

Once down i had 2ropes to pull down and put away .. so it did slow the job down with the setup and take down but early days I guess..

 

Sorry if that was boring but I had to start somewhere.

No it’s not boring, I’m on two lines and still trying to figure out ways to make it more user friendly. I climb on vt with dmm triple pulleys, Ddrt. With a tree motion harness. Tbh I’m struggling organising everything thats going on with everything on the harness bridges. I’m thinking of having one short and one long bridge as tree motion has two bridge and having one of my hitch’s floating so I can stagger the pulleys to stop them being side by side. I’m not sure yet. I’m not 100% sure yet. Feels awkward being on two lines constantly. Almost said f@#k this shit the other day and just be a gardener lol. It has taken the fun out of it for me. It’s good to see other climbers setups because there’s no videos or pics of anyone doing it yet. Looks like your carabiners in the wrong hole on the triple pulley. Should be the bottom hole or is that normal for srt. Iv never climbed srt soz lol.

[Rich Rule]

Here is an example of double SRT from a guy in the US.  It doesn't look too bad in this scenario.  He ascends on the one anchor point and two ropes.

 

He isn't in a tight, multiple times reduced, plane tree in South London though.

 

Also, he isn't using CE marked equipment, so don't go copying or the HSE and tree police will be after you.

 

 

[warren]

1 hour ago, Paul201t said:

Looks like your carabiners in the wrong hole on the triple pulley. Should be the bottom hole or is that normal for srt. Iv never climbed srt soz lol.

Yep it's right for srt. 

 

I only had 1 bridge today reducing a big poplar and got twisted a few times when I changed tree sides. I've just added a second bridge (which will probably invalidate something somewhere) to see if that eases things. But yes rope management is a 'mare. Add in a rigging system and it gets really fun. 

[Paul201t]

1 hour ago, warren said:

Yep it's right for srt. 

 

I only had 1 bridge today reducing a big poplar and got twisted a few times when I changed tree sides. I've just added a second bridge (which will probably invalidate something somewhere) to see if that eases things. But yes rope management is a 'mare. Add in a rigging system and it gets really fun. 

My bad. Can see now that the rope wrench wouldn’t fit if using the bottom hole. Iv not rigged since climbing two lines so got that to look forward to yet! 

[finchyo]

I am going to be the 1 in a thousand that probably thinks this is all a great idea! ?

 

I believe that all other industries that use rope access and work positing must have two full rope systems so why not us? Our work situation is unique and complicated for sure but in no sense any different, personally I think more 'dangerous' than other climbing industries. Yes it does require thinking about and we should be coming together to share advice and tips on best ways to implement these standards and regs. Not bashing it all as rubbish!

 

I have implemented climbing on two MRS/SRS systems now in most situations and find it of no real detriment to me when working. Yes I am a little slower at first but that will change the more I do it. If fact I 'feel' much safer in the canopy, more stable and sometimes quicker as I am already tied in twice, I am always ready to cut. Thus I don't need to keep putting my lanyard on and off all the time! The lanyard is just there for work positioning now when I need it, not as a life line backup.

 

I am a competent experienced climber but I have had an anchor snap out when accessing a tree sending me to the ground. Luckily i wasn't injured but this situation would have been made safer with a second line installed. People get tired, clip into clothing, cut ropes, snap anchors, loose footing etc. This happens to even the most experienced climbers, just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it wont.

 

People will run their vans overloaded, not have trailer licences, LOLER, tickets, PPE etc. and they will not move to climbing with two rope systems. That's fine, you cant compete with people like this. It is not just up to the AA to be promoting the industry but us as companies to our clients and wider audience. We need to be bigging ourselves up just as much as our industry associations. I regularly talk to my clients about the efforts and systems we have in place for climbing safely at work, it shows that we are a professional outfit that takes the care of our staff as the number one priority. 

 

I think the AA have spent a lot of time and money on 'contesting' this with HSE and everyone is bashing them for doing nothing. Don't get me started on conspiracy theories of collusion with training schools and equipment manufactures ?

 

If this new push to adhere to the regs saves but one life or accident then it will be worth it.

 

[MattyF]

Well your entitled to that opinion .... I honestly can’t see what Is wrong with one anchor and cutting when using a work positioning strop, no one should be working off anchor points that have potential to fail... even if I’m subby climbing I will take the time to select the strongest most suitable upright anchor , if there is none or the tree requires then two ropes come in to play but it’s not suitable for most trees.

[Craig Johnson]

10 hours ago, finchyo said:

I believe that all other industries that use rope access and work positing must have two full rope systems so why not us? 

No, broadley speaking other industries have one working system and a backup system that only come into play on the failure of the primary. these systems are designed to work on near/vertical ropes in 2D. they do not use two primary systems or work in 3D........generally and the whole thing falls down around anchor points

[MattyF]

10 hours ago, finchyo said:

I am going to be the 1 in a thousand that probably thinks this is all a great idea! ?

 

I think the AA have spent a lot of time and money on 'contesting' this with HSE and everyone is bashing them for doing nothing. Don't get me started on conspiracy theories of collusion with training schools and equipment manufactures 

 

If this new push to adhere to the regs saves but one life or accident then it will be worth it.

 

Ok I’m going to bite ;) I did ask Paul about the time span for the accident data collected that has given the HSE the reasons to make this decision but never got a reply.

In my view they have failed us because accidents are going to happen because of this ... there failure to point out that the rest of the rope industry is working off two dimensional faces like buildings , tree climbing is completely different, being three dimensional it makes the use of two anchors moving through branches almost impossible unless you unclip and reattached your ropes continuously... the most important thing in climbing is not to get complacent at this , if you have to continually have to do it to move through the crown it will happen that I can guarantee. 
Also we have more ropes near chainsaws or machines that have potential to damage them get caught in ground or falling debris, they need to show and help get this reversed instead of going a long with it.