Going Glyphosate/Chemical free

[breffni]

Anyone used vinegar? Specifically 10-20% acetic acid?

[gary112]

9 minutes ago, breffni said:

Anyone used vinegar? Specifically 10-20% acetic acid?

Couple mths back had a gallon of white vinegar out of date,pour it out on yard at home to see and it killed everything it touched and still nothing grown back where i poured it.Also restoring an old bike at the minute and it cleans alloy great aswell

[Conor Wright]

Anyone used vinegar? Specifically 10-20% acetic acid?

Yep, 20% acetic acid mixed with a cup of epsom salts and 10 ltrs of water with a dash of dish washing liquid to get it to stick, have been using it as an alternative to glyphosphate for two growing seasons now. Both around home and for a small number of clients. Works well, kills broadleaf weeds effectively but I find grass comes back a bit faster than if sprayed with roundup or other 360ppm glyphosphate weed killers. Still prefer to give a second spray with vinegar than use glyphosphate once. Nasty stuff. For around food crops we use oscillating hoes. Very efficient and easy to handle tools.

[breffni]

2 hours ago, Conor Wright said:

6 hours ago, breffni said:

Anyone used vinegar? Specifically 10-20% acetic acid?

Yep, 20% acetic acid mixed with a cup of epsom salts and 10 ltrs of water with a dash of dish washing liquid to get it to stick, have been using it as an alternative to glyphosphate for two growing seasons now. Both around home and for a small number of clients. Works well, kills broadleaf weeds effectively but I find grass comes back a bit faster than if sprayed with roundup or other 360ppm glyphosphate weed killers. Still prefer to give a second spray with vinegar than use glyphosphate once. Nasty stuff. For around food crops we use oscillating hoes. Very efficient and easy to handle tools.

How much acid per 10l of water? Its mainly small weeds between slabs. 

[Conor Wright]

52 minutes ago, breffni said:

How much acid per 10l of water? Its mainly small weeds between slabs. 

I usually use 2 ltrs of 20% acetic acid in 10 ltrs of warm water with the epsom salts (heaped cup) already dissolved into it. Less acid may do if you're dealing with a lesser amount of weeds. If you're spot spraying, maybe use the vinegar neat in a squirty bottle with a drop of washing liquid added to get it to stick to the leaves?

[Billhook]

Tis a strange world we live in, especially one which demonises chemicals.  Both salt  (NaCl) and Acetic Acid (CH3COOH) are chemicals.  Salt is a good example of one that without it we would die and too much of it we will die.

CO2 is the latest one yet without it all life would cease.

Glyphosphate is one of the least harmful to the environment if used correctly which is why it can be used in waterways, or at least could be for many years.

We allow  housewives to pour neat chlorine down their sinks and loos in un metered quantities, use all kinds of harsh oven cleaners and general  worktop cleaners.  We drink water with fluorides and chlorine in them and we swim in highly chlorinated public pools.

We pour petrol and oil into our vehicles, we use gas and oil for heating and cooking, and coal of course.  All chemicals..

It is a fine balance between the harm and the good.

One of the best examples was DDT, now everyone knows how bad that insecticide was because it went into the food chain and eventually killed the raptors, the crows, the hawks etc.  But that meant when I was a child in the 1960s that our garden was full of small birds, thrushes were out in the middle of the lawn.  Now the sparrow hawks have cleaned most of them up but the loss of small birds is blamed on farmers using chemicals bizarrely.

More serious was the use of DDT in places like Egypt where people starved due to locust plagues.  DDT was administered at the flightless stage by thousands of people armed only with buckets of DDT and a small  leafy branch.  This saved thousands of lives.

Worse than that was the banning of DDT just before it had nearly wiped out the malaria carrying mosquitoes which have now killed millions.

Roundup was actually put in a glass and the head of Monsanto drank it neat to demonstrate how benign it was.

It is all a delicate balance as I said but  I do not think people quite understand the consequences of banning it in farming.

It may make it impossible to grow Winter Wheat due to blackgrass infestation. Not only would this increase the use of more harmful chemicals or increased use of tractors and cultivation and more burning of fossil fuels, but this would also mean very much reduced yields in a world where the population is increasing.

[maybelateron]

45 minutes ago, Billhook said:

Tis a strange world we live in, especially one which demonises chemicals.  Both salt  (NaCl) and Acetic Acid (CH3COOH) are chemicals.  Salt is a good example of one that without it we would die and too much of it we will die.

When I used to have a grounds maintenance contract I was using a boom sprayer on a calm day to apply lawn weedkiller. One of the renting residents came out and gave me a real hard time about the evil of chemicals. Meanwhile he was smoking a rollie - don't suppose he saw that as a chemical or carcinogen. Or maybe he was worried the weedkiller would kill all the wildlife growing in his false dreadlocks!

[breffni]

1 hour ago, Billhook said:

Tis a strange world we live in, especially one which demonises chemicals.  Both salt  (NaCl) and Acetic Acid (CH3COOH) are chemicals.  Salt is a good example of one that without it we would die and too much of it we will die.

CO2 is the latest one yet without it all life would cease.

Glyphosphate is one of the least harmful to the environment if used correctly which is why it can be used in waterways, or at least could be for many years.

We allow  housewives to pour neat chlorine down their sinks and loos in un metered quantities, use all kinds of harsh oven cleaners and general  worktop cleaners.  We drink water with fluorides and chlorine in them and we swim in highly chlorinated public pools.

We pour petrol and oil into our vehicles, we use gas and oil for heating and cooking, and coal of course.  All chemicals..

It is a fine balance between the harm and the good.

One of the best examples was DDT, now everyone knows how bad that insecticide was because it went into the food chain and eventually killed the raptors, the crows, the hawks etc.  But that meant when I was a child in the 1960s that our garden was full of small birds, thrushes were out in the middle of the lawn.  Now the sparrow hawks have cleaned most of them up but the loss of small birds is blamed on farmers using chemicals bizarrely.

More serious was the use of DDT in places like Egypt where people starved due to locust plagues.  DDT was administered at the flightless stage by thousands of people armed only with buckets of DDT and a small  leafy branch.  This saved thousands of lives.

Worse than that was the banning of DDT just before it had nearly wiped out the malaria carrying mosquitoes which have now killed millions.

Roundup was actually put in a glass and the head of Monsanto drank it neat to demonstrate how benign it was.

It is all a delicate balance as I said but  I do not think people quite understand the consequences of banning it in farming.

It may make it impossible to grow Winter Wheat due to blackgrass infestation. Not only would this increase the use of more harmful chemicals or increased use of tractors and cultivation and more burning of fossil fuels, but this would also mean very much reduced yields in a world where the population is 

Thats a load of shite blaming sparrowhawks for the demise of small birds. Its modern intensive farming more than anything. Do you work for the NFU?

Happy Christmas! 

[Paul Cleaver]

8 hours ago, breffni said:

Thats a load of shite blaming sparrowhawks for the demise of small birds. Its modern intensive farming more than anything. Do you work for the NFU?

Happy Christmas! 

+ cats make a big impact on small bird populations

[Billhook]

11 hours ago, breffni said:

Thats a load of shite blaming sparrowhawks for the demise of small birds. Its modern intensive farming more than anything. Do you work for the NFU?

Happy Christmas! 

Well I have seen it happen several times and I bet many others on this forum have,  One moment a song thrush is listening for worms in the middle of the lawn and the next second all that is left is a cloud of feathers.  They attack the tits on my bird feeder as well.  Sparrow hawks are only a small part of the picture.  Birds and their young have to avoid carrion crows, magpies, jackdaws, jays, kestrels owls and now buzzards and red kites as well as cats, foxes, squirrels, weasels, stoats and rats.

The old "due to modern intensive farming methods" is becoming a bit tired now.  I was fully organic for ten years, which I admit would have been a loss but for the subsidy.  I saw no increase in wildlife on the farm, in fact the reverse due to the increase of the aforementioned.  We are much less intensive now even after returning to conventional farming , much more selective and accurate with chemicals which are themselves more thoroughly tested and have not used an insecticide for years.