Two Rope Working Consultation

[Woodside Tree Services]

I've looked at rope access guys using a second line with a moving grab/short lanyard as a second attachment line, doesn't that constitute a second line in this game too? why do they both have to be operational 'climbing' lines? you don't ascend on two srt systems at once....you can only rope walk one line but could have the 2nd line running alongside with a safety grab (or your 2nd hitch climbing system or swap over to that up top) maybe tail it into a harness hung bag when you get up there.....The object is to prevent you hitting the ground from a failed primary tie in point ,interpreting  the regulations to satisfy both parties is the hard bit ....the second line is going to be a rated climb line but used as a secondary redundancy ,its gonna act as a very long 'lanyard' as well as your current work positioning lanyard, then you've 3 ties in the tree.!!! picking a good close second tie in is gonna be the trick...and if you're working a tree that's in such bad condition that it doesn't offer a second safe tie in, should you even be climbing it, there are always other options, including walking away..  

 

[Woodside Tree Services]

Paul Poynter.....As regards how is this all configured on your bridge or bridge ring(s) ...if you were tied in to two anchors and by chance your primary (probably highest?)anchor of unknown weight decides to snap off plummet groundwards give you a nice big shockload and you've got both systems on one bridge ring.....you're piggy in the middle, if the ring holds that is.....and you'd have to be quick at your knife to cut that rope if you didn't want the second anchor and you pulling out of the tree. 

maybe better to have both systems shackled together and you are t''d off that stronger connector by a 'biner so your bridge ring isn't taking all the tensile shockload.? you'd still have to be quick on the knife ?  if you've got your work positioning lanyard on, theres another aid to keep you in the tree,,,

[Jamie Jones]

Your thinking of it wrong...
When working you will have three points of connection. 2x rope systems and a lanyard.
The reason you must have 2x ropes that meet the ground is because if something goes wrong that this often multiplies the problem.
Lets say your cutting and there is an unexpected incident and the chainsaw kicks back due to an unexpected event (Branch snaps and kicks back suddenly while at full chat) and in the heat of the moment a secondary issue happens... You you cut your main line and yourself.
You are now in the tree bleeding and with no rope to the ground while stuck on a lanyard and only one arm to sort the problem out. It becomes a very bad day at the office.

With the two lines & Lanyard.
You should be working with all three system active. and only moving with a minimum of two active systems connected and the third must be attached before another can be released. 
There is a good chance that you will only cut one line. The lanyard holds you in place with support from the second main line. The first line is useless, so you can detach that, un-hook your lanyard and still lower your self down with your one good arm.

 

The use of say a long CE Lanyard as a second line system only meets the regs if it can reach the ground from the height point being climbed.. 
 

[stewmo]

Your thinking of it wrong...
When working you will have three points of connection. 2x rope systems and a lanyard.
The reason you must have 2x ropes that meet the ground is because if something goes wrong that this often multiplies the problem.
Lets say your cutting and there is an unexpected incident and the chainsaw kicks back due to an unexpected event (Branch snaps and kicks back suddenly while at full chat) and in the heat of the moment a secondary issue happens... You you cut your main line and yourself.
You are now in the tree bleeding and with no rope to the ground while stuck on a lanyard and only one arm to sort the problem out. It becomes a very bad day at the office.

With the two lines & Lanyard.
You should be working with all three system active. and only moving with a minimum of two active systems connected and the third must be attached before another can be released. 
There is a good chance that you will only cut one line. The lanyard holds you in place with support from the second main line. The first line is useless, so you can detach that, un-hook your lanyard and still lower your self down with your one good arm.
 
The use of say a long CE Lanyard as a second line system only meets the regs if it can reach the ground from the height point being climbed.. 
 

And what if you cut one arm and miss the rope? How are you going to sort out 3 systems?

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

On 25/08/2020 at 21:15, Jamie Jones said:

Your thinking of it wrong...
When working you will have three points of connection. 2x rope systems and a lanyard.
The reason you must have 2x ropes that meet the ground is because if something goes wrong that this often multiplies the problem.
Lets say your cutting and there is an unexpected incident and the chainsaw kicks back due to an unexpected event (Branch snaps and kicks back suddenly while at full chat) and in the heat of the moment a secondary issue happens... You you cut your main line and yourself.
You are now in the tree bleeding and with no rope to the ground while stuck on a lanyard and only one arm to sort the problem out. It becomes a very bad day at the office.

With the two lines & Lanyard.
You should be working with all three system active. and only moving with a minimum of two active systems connected and the third must be attached before another can be released. 
There is a good chance that you will only cut one line. The lanyard holds you in place with support from the second main line. The first line is useless, so you can detach that, un-hook your lanyard and still lower your self down with your one good arm.

 

The use of say a long CE Lanyard as a second line system only meets the regs if it can reach the ground from the height point being climbed.. 
 

To clarify "The Regs", in practice the ICoP, do not require the "backup system", ie the lanyard as you refer, to be capable of getting you to ground but stopping you falling. If you chose to use a system that allows you to get to ground, which obviously has benefits, that is your choice/decision given the circumstances and personal preferences. An interpretation/expectation if not, is that the aerial rescue provision will get you to ground.

Just wanted to clarify that point.

Regards

Paul

[Jamie Jones]

13 hours ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

To clarify "The Regs", in practice the ICoP, do not require the "backup system", ie the lanyard as you refer, to be capable of getting you to ground but stopping you falling. If you chose to use a system that allows you to get to ground, which obviously has benefits, that is your choice/decision given the circumstances and personal preferences. An interpretation/expectation if not, is that the aerial rescue provision will get you to ground.

Just wanted to clarify that point.

Regards

Paul

Just done my Aerial Pruning Course the other week and their understanding and interpretation of the regs to meet NPTC Qualification is that two of your three systems have to reach the ground... 

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

23 minutes ago, Jamie Jones said:

Just done my Aerial Pruning Course the other week and their understanding and interpretation of the regs to meet NPTC Qualification is that two of your three systems have to reach the ground... 

Hi Jamie, the ICoP only requires the 'primary system' to provide an uninterrupted descent to ground, the 'back-up' (2nd system) is a fail-to-safe to prevent a fall in the event the primary system fails.

 

I can't comment on City & Guilds NPTCs interpretation / application of the ICoP but perhaps it precedes its publication (and if their requirement exceeds its recommendations, and I can see the benefits of such as in the event of failure of the primary system if the back-up can allow for a descent to ground you've effectively got 2 primary systems...AKA , then no bad thing perhaps.)

 

Regards,

Paul

 

PS I believe Lantra are reviewing their training in light of the ICoP so it will be interesting to see their...application. 

 

[swinny]

In layman's terms then call it a guide for dummies....

 

What we supposed to be using now?

 

Usually a main line and a secondary attachment... But now what?

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

10 hours ago, swinny said:

In layman's terms then call it a guide for dummies....

 

What we supposed to be using now?

 

Usually a main line and a secondary attachment... But now what?

Sorry 'Swinny' I missed your post last night.

 

In answer to your question, under the current ICoP, the default position is a primary system + a back-up essentially at all times unless it is not practicable to maintain it for specific, short-duration tasks. (an example of which may be during change-overs on ascent.)

 

The associated Technical Guide 1 - Tree Climbing and Aerial Rescue (TG1) should be published very soon and that will aid interpretation of the ICoP and cite practical examples etc. to aid application for climbers.

 

Regards,

Paul

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

ALL (if I may) - please be aware that whilst this thread has focused on the climbing aspect of working at height (in trees) compliance with the W@H Regs., and the associated industry ICoP, involves planning and decision making following the 'hierarchy principles' and you must have a robust procedure for this which justifies, for instance, "why" a MEWP is not used for the job (the Table on p.26 of the ICoP is very useful / informative here.)

 

HSE, and previous prosecutions / accident investigations, have clearly adopted a "benefit of hindsight" approach were a climber has fallen out of a tree and been injured, where the tree was MEWP accessible, asking "why" the MEWP wasn't used and that's why you need to have a robust decision making procedure in place.

 

Thanks for reading..

Paul

 

PS the ICoP is viewable here , and can be downloaded as a pdf. file (30mb)

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