Background to the HSE decision on two rope working

[TIMON]

were both lines attached to his bridge by one crab?
 
I've known two people that have fallen  in tree work and died as a result, I've been struggling all day to remember the first chap's name, such is memory as one gets older.

I listened through some of the Webinar and caught them saying that each system/backup had to have a separate connection to the harness.
I’m still unsure whether a rope bridge is classed as a separate connection, as I’m sure ‘they’ (think it was Simon) said that two rings on the same bridge was ok. Thinking about this logically, if you did cut through your bridge, a second line wouldn’t save you anyway as the two systems become one at the bridge.
I use a TM with a single bridge and mostly use my lower ‘D’s’ to connect my second line/lanyard.
I don’t see the point of a second line connected to the same bridge.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

7 minutes ago, TIMON said:

 

I listened through some of the Webinar and caught them saying that each system/backup had to have a separate connection to the harness.
I’m still unsure whether a rope bridge is classed as a separate connection, as I’m sure ‘they’ (think it was Simon) said that two rings on the same bridge was ok. Thinking about this logically, if you did cut through your bridge, a second line wouldn’t save you anyway as the two systems become one at the bridge.
I use a TM with a single bridge and mostly use my lower ‘D’s’ to connect my second line/lanyard.
I don’t see the point of a second line connected to the same bridge.

 

Where 2 rings are on 1 bridge Ti, you'll need to wear 2 harnesses - otherwise it would still be a single point of failure. 

[Stubby]

1 hour ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

Where 2 rings are on 1 bridge Ti, you'll need to wear 2 harnesses - otherwise it would still be a single point of failure. 

And 4 pairs of trousers , at least . 

[Khriss]

11 hours ago, openspaceman said:

were both lines attached to his bridge by one crab?

 

I've known two people that have fallen  in tree work and died as a result, I've been struggling all day to remember the first chap's name, such is memory as one gets older.

 It was posted in the magazine , too early for a HSE  quote, just September this year, but Power Line stuff like Rail is quite stringent,  will not judge the bloke but seriously, 2Rope IS supposed to make yr day safer......  K

 

( originally did not want to engage in this  thread  as Paul has had enuff flak off this site, but that incident pushed me off end as we put a lot of effort last October into getting 2Rope into place at our company ? an the couple of nob ends who put up severe resistance to it are no doubt laffin now  ) 

[Khriss]

2 hours ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

Where 2 rings are on 1 bridge Ti, you'll need to wear 2 harnesses - otherwise it would still be a single point of failure. 

I'll pay good money to see you in 2 harnesss Kev  ? K

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

1 hour ago, Khriss said:

 It was posted in the magazine , too early for a HSE  quote, just September this year, but Power Line stuff like Rail is quite stringent,  will not judge the bloke but seriously, 2Rope IS supposed to make yr day safer......  K

 

( originally did not want to engage in this  thread  as Paul has had enuff flak off this site, but that incident pushed me off end as we put a lot of effort last October into getting 2Rope into place at our company ? an the couple of nob ends who put up severe resistance to it are no doubt laffin now  ) 

Khriss, many business have adopted a policy of 2-ropes..."end of." This is the employers prerogative.

 

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

4 hours ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

Where 2 rings are on 1 bridge Ti, you'll need to wear 2 harnesses - otherwise it would still be a single point of failure. 

Do bridges fail? (I don't know but haven't heard of it commonly.)

 

HSE have accepted 2 independent systems , independently attached e.g. separate karabiners, to a single bridge but two bridges may be a better option...it's for the "proficient operator" to determine in conjunction with the "competent person" (ICOP2 terms).

 

In a nutshell - 2 harnesses, 4 pair of trousers and 6 helmets  are not required  

Paul

 

[Khriss]

6 minutes ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

Khriss, many business have adopted a policy of 2-ropes..."end of." This is the employers prerogative.

 

Yes. Could not see a way around it. I know people want a work around cos of their precious expensive rope but ( instead of wallet spanking zigzags) it  could only be 2Rope  and it was actually a client demand. K

[Paddy1000111]

I went for some training recently so I was up to date with the most recent climbing rules. It all changed again a few weeks back or so I was told. Originally it had to be 2 ropes always but you can now (AFAIK) drop to one rope assuming you're static on a branch or something so you can be on one rope whilst tying in your other anchor for example. Originally you would have had to have anchor 1 plus your positional strop whilst changing your second anchor. The NPTC assessment still requires you to be on two ropes all the time though so there are some massive inconsistencies. 

 

Be interesting to see what's said about the connection to harness thing. I assume they mean two connections to a closed harness connection i.e. two carabiners on a rope bridge ring is okay but using two ropes onto one carabiner on the harness would be a no as it's an open connection (although why you would do this is beyond me anyway). I use a camp gyro as my rope bridge connection which is a tip I got from the instructor. Technically a closed system and makes the two rope thing not a big deal as everything rotates independently to eachother. Two ropes onto a single ring is a nightmare. 

 

If they say it needs to be two completely independent systems then the only harness on the market that offers that AFAIK is the Treemotion Evo. Part of the reason I changed to one is the treehog doesn't allow for leg D attachment so your positional strop isn't a tie in as its on the waist D 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Paddy1000111

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

2 minutes ago, Paddy1000111 said:

I went for some training recently so I was up to date with the most recent climbing rules. It all changed again a few weeks back or so I was told. Originally it had to be 2 ropes always but you can now (AFAIK) drop to one rope assuming you're static on a branch or something so you can be on one rope whilst tying in your other anchor for example. Originally you would have had to have anchor 1 plus your positional strop whilst changing your second anchor. The NPTC assessment still requires you to be on two ropes all the time though so there are some massive inconsistencies. 

 

Be interesting to see what's said about the connection to harness thing. I assume they mean two connections to a closed harness connection i.e. two carabiners on a rope bridge ring is okay but using two ropes onto one carabiner on the harness would be a no as it's an open connection (although why you would do this is beyond me anyway). I use a camp gyro as my rope bridge connection which is a tip I got from the instructor. Technically a closed system and makes the two rope thing not a big deal as everything rotates independently to eachother. Two ropes onto a single ring is a nightmare. 

Hi Paddy, once TG1 is formally released (2 weeks) training and assessment organisations will have consistent standards to work to and, hopefully, apply consistently.

Please see earlier comments about connecting to the harness.

Thank you.

Paul