Background to the HSE decision on two rope working

[breffni]

2 hours ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

Lions, donkeys & dinosaurs Ti ?

Great book!

[TIMON]

Great book!

Talking of books..,,, you finished with my LOLER book? [emoji57]

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

1 minute ago, TIMON said:

 

Talking of books..,,, you finished with my LOLER book?

 

That's the trouble with lending books Ti....  You never see them again (??s! @eggsarascal)

Edited December 29, 2019 by kevinjohnsonmbe

[stewmo]

The sticking point for me on this has been why is there any difference between so called MRT and SRT when working the tree? There doesn't seem to be any practical difference in risk to me, and SRT seems considerably more practical in many situations.

 

So I was digging about for definitions and found a Working at Height report by Tony Lane (from 2004!) HSE document that clarified that work positioning is with a moving rope, and rope access is with a static or stationary rope. This is prior to SRT being used by many, if any, climbers in a work situation.

 

HSE has made this distinction for working at heights. I’m presuming they are not inclined to change it, but this is what needs to change for us to have alignment of techniques within our industry. 

 

Is there other industries that use both mrt and srt? From inside ours, we can’t see any practical difference between working with a moving rope or a stationary rope but perhaps other industries tend to stick with one and therefore it was an easy way to delineate different ways of working? I don't know 
For us it makes no sense to have different standards for different rope techniques accessing the same structures (trees) in essentially the same way. Single rope, single anchor point with localised backup. SRT needs to classed as work positioning in tree work.

 

BUT

For all those slating the AA, with all this in mind, I can’t see what else the icop can say. 
Don’t get me wrong I think it’s a bureaucratic farce,  but in trying to understand the whole situation this is what I have found. 

And thus....
In the WaH regs it says a work positioning system must ‘include a suitable backup system’ and for rope access and positioning techniques ‘a system comprises two separately anchored lines’

 

I wonder how many people would have gotten into SRT if from the outset we would have had to have had two lines, as was expected by HSE essentially from 2005, if not earlier. I reckon most would have said it wasn't worth the hassle and all the effort into developing techniques and kit may never have happened.

[eggsarascal]

On 29/12/2019 at 20:45, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

That's the trouble with lending books Ti....  You never see them again (??s! @eggsarascal)

It's a fair cop, it got left behind when Karen and I split up. If you want it replacing I'll get a new copy.

[Jake Andrews]

@stewmo

For us it makes no sense to have different standards for different rope techniques accessing the same structures (trees) in essentially the same way. Single rope, single anchor point with localised backup. SRT needs to classed as work positioning in tree work.

I believe it is..............when you're in position, with your strop ready to cut. I think it's the accessing the canopy which differentiates it between 'work positioning' and 'Rope access'. We use two different systems when climbing a tree. Rope access are always backed up, even when they train for rescue. I believe this is what the HSE are wanting us to comply with . 

 

And thus....
In the WaH regs it says a work positioning system must ‘include a suitable backup system’ and for rope access and positioning techniques ‘a system comprises two separately anchored lines’

Can you categorically tell me what the difference is between the two? What is a 'suitable backup' that isn't two 'independent anchored lines'?

Edited December 31, 2019 by Jake Andrews
better layout

[stewmo]

4 hours ago, Jake Andrews said:

@stewmo

For us it makes no sense to have different standards for different rope techniques accessing the same structures (trees) in essentially the same way. Single rope, single anchor point with localised backup. SRT needs to classed as work positioning in tree work.

I believe it is..............when you're in position, with your strop ready to cut. I think it's the accessing the canopy which differentiates it between 'work positioning' and 'Rope access'. We use two different systems when climbing a tree. Rope access are always backed up, even when they train for rescue. I believe this is what the HSE are wanting us to comply with . 

 

Ultimately we don't know, we're making educated guesses. But I can't put either MRT or SRT into one or the other, work positioning or rope access.... unless it is defined by moving or static rope as it said in the document. I can climb to my TIP and then work either MRT or SRT. I can throwline in and then work MRT or SRT. I can climb the tree on either, I can ascend on either. There is nothing that clearly distinguishes the two techniques, that says this is this and that is that.  
The only scenario that cannot be replicated by the other is throwlining in and then base tying for SRT access.

If this is the problem then why not say in the ICoP...when accessing the crown with a base tie this is rope access and a second line is necessary....

 

 

 

And thus....
In the WaH regs it says a work positioning system must ‘include a suitable backup system’ and for rope access and positioning techniques ‘a system comprises two separately anchored lines’

Can you categorically tell me what the difference is between the two? What is a 'suitable backup' that isn't two 'independent anchored lines'?

 

Well it is a direct quote from the WaH regs isn't it. Perhaps to cover their backs from a legislative point of view. I get what you are saying and that is why the whole thing is fudge from a user's perspective. 

But for me there is a difference to 'being tied in twice at all times' and having two TIPs.

Being tied in twice at all times will massively reduce the incidents of falling from a tree, if an anchor fails or a line is cut, or descent off the end of a rope. 

Having two TIPs won't reduce it any further and will be more awkward, more tiring, more complicated, more time consuming etc.

[stewmo]

wahreport.pdf

 

Here's the report...page 5 I think for the clarification of work positioning vs rope access:

 

Quote:

In work positioning the rope advances or moves with the climber. In rope access the rope remains static and the climber advances up and down the rope

Edited December 31, 2019 by stewmo
added quote

[Tommy Hutchinson]

I thought IRATA/rope access deal with static rope systems only?

Edited January 2, 2020 by Tommy Hutchinson

[stewmo]

I thought IRATA/rope access deal with static rope systems only?

I don’t know tbh but that would be my assumption