Brexit ! what will this mean ? ( lets get a good thread going )

[javelin10]

10 hours ago, skyhuck said:

Do you really believe all this drivel? 

Yes. And most of it not even opinion, it is history. Would you explain which bits you think are drivel, and why?

10 hours ago, skyhuck said:

 

The UK has alway lead the world on workers rights and we still do, UK workers have better rights and benefits than many in the EU.

Up until 7 years ago you may have been right but now the tories are trying to water them down. They make no secret that they hate the working time directive, they've made it impossible for most low-paid workers to bring Employment Tribunal cases by bringing in huge fees, and many leading brexiteers, make no secret that they want to bring in 'fire at will' dismissal that will undermine every employment right we have at a stroke, and all in the name of 'competitiveness'.

10 hours ago, skyhuck said:

 

How can an immigrant have possibly contributed as much as an old person whose payed tax their whole working life?

It's not about the total positive contribution made, it is what they put in minus what they take out. A 25-40 year old Romanian doesn't need to be educated at the taxpayers expense, is of the age where they rarely need medical care and is generally in full-time work. At the beginning an end of our lives we put a very great burden on the taxpayer and our families. If that Romanian stays and gets old here they will also have put in a lifetime's work, we will just have missed out on having to educate them.

10 hours ago, skyhuck said:

 

The difference between Brussels screwing up our lives and Westminster doing the same, is that we can vote out the clowns in Westminster. Do your really not see the difference? Plus without the ability to blame Brussels Westminster can better be held to account!

We have elections for the European parliament as well, forget about those? The fact that many British citizens don't take them seriously and vote for morons like Nigel Farage is not Brussel's fault, it is our own. At least the European elections use a fair and proportional system so they don't get the ridiculous results like we do in Westminster, 2015 being the worst in recent history, with the government having polled less than 40% of the vote, SNP getting all of Scotland with about 50% and Ukip getting one miserable seat despite polling 14%!! Silver linings and all that...

10 hours ago, skyhuck said:

 

The idea the Amazon etc, would cease trading in the UK because of taxation is utterly laughable.

The idea that we'd get that far is laughable because no UK government would DARE try and make these super corporations pay a reasonable amount of tax without having the support of the EU and probably the US as well. That's the important thing to bear in mind, and it came from the suggestion that being smaller but independent could actually reduce our sovereignty rather then increase it as everyone just assumes.

[WesD]

1 hour ago, javelin10 said:

The whole benefit if EU citizens working here is that they tend not to bring their children or elderly relatives. This helps us plug the hole in our demographic, ie, larger numbers of children, huge numbers of retirees and smaller numbers of working age people in the middle trying to pay for them all. The old age crisis is the most serious social crisis we have at the moment, with care  and NHS costs spiralling up year on year.

Your bending the situation to suit your point, they tend not hmm this is tosh it’s a mixed bag some work here and leave sure but lots stay and bring their families too. To be fair I have no problem with immigrants coming here to better their lives providing they work for it instead of taking handouts! 

 

Immigration is the nhs’s Biggest problem by far however they don’t document the problem why well to hide it. Last year there where more applications for an ehic card from outside the UK it’s a growing problem. Individuals use dodgy companies to gain a british postal address apply for ehic make a doctors appointment visit UK for appointment fly home have paperwork completed by dodgy company then low and behold dodgy company collects mail from UK address and posts ehic on all for a fee to the dodgy company so we pay for their care outside the UK! You couldn’t make it up!

 

Imigrants if they have worked here holidayed here or even fly here to give birth can walk into any A&E and receive treatment without paying a penny for us to do that abroad we need ehic + insurance. 

 

Now ill bend facts to suit my agenda here goes ..... my UK adult aged 65 has not yet retired and has never been ill or unemployed he’s paid tax from 16 years of age and is still paying tax hasn’t really needed much from the NHS vs an EU immigrant aged 30 who’s been here for 5 years in construction has left his family back home so supports them by sending 50% of his salary Home also hasn’t needed the NHS but needed somewhere to live when he came with no money. Which outcome is better for UK?

 

I’m not going to persuade you to change your mind on in or out and you won’t change mine you are free to hold whatever opinion you like without being labelled narrow minded or retarded I will still respect your opinion you’ve earned it however a touch of class in return seems too much to hope for from camp remain. 

 

IMO their is no correct answer only a direction and a work in progress I have worked all of my life paid my my taxes served my country returned the forces investment by touring before leaving haven’t yet needed the nhs much and would like my opinion to be not heard or adhered but at the least respected without being labelled narrow minded or retarded and before you say those comments weren’t aimed at me directly you labelled half well more than half of the exit voters that way so statistically 1 in 2 leaver on here are narrow minded or retarded. I just thank god @matelot is on side leave with me 

 

only kidding @matelot  

[skyhuck]

1 hour ago, javelin10 said:

Yes. And most of it not even opinion, it is history. Would you explain which bits you think are drivel, and why?

Up until 7 years ago you may have been right but now the tories are trying to water them down. They make no secret that they hate the working time directive, they've made it impossible for most low-paid workers to bring Employment Tribunal cases by bringing in huge fees, and many leading brexiteers, make no secret that they want to bring in 'fire at will' dismissal that will undermine every employment right we have at a stroke, and all in the name of 'competitiveness'.

It's not about the total positive contribution made, it is what they put in minus what they take out. A 25-40 year old Romanian doesn't need to be educated at the taxpayers expense, is of the age where they rarely need medical care and is generally in full-time work. At the beginning an end of our lives we put a very great burden on the taxpayer and our families. If that Romanian stays and gets old here they will also have put in a lifetime's work, we will just have missed out on having to educate them.

We have elections for the European parliament as well, forget about those? The fact that many British citizens don't take them seriously and vote for morons like Nigel Farage is not Brussel's fault, it is our own. At least the European elections use a fair and proportional system so they don't get the ridiculous results like we do in Westminster, 2015 being the worst in recent history, with the government having polled less than 40% of the vote, SNP getting all of Scotland with about 50% and Ukip getting one miserable seat despite polling 14%!! Silver linings and all that...

The idea that we'd get that far is laughable because no UK government would DARE try and make these super corporations pay a reasonable amount of tax without having the support of the EU and probably the US as well. That's the important thing to bear in mind, and it came from the suggestion that being smaller but independent could actually reduce our sovereignty rather then increase it as everyone just assumes.

More nonsense 

 

Many workers are apposed to the working time directive. 

 

So you think immigrants don't have children? and bring their elderly relatives? One of the EU negotiation sticking points is they want us to accept any relative that wishes to come after Brexit. 

 

If the EU is so democratic why are there something like 6 (can't recall the exact number) unelected presidents? The EU itself is utterly corrupt, not having been audited in decades.

 

If we need the EU to stand up to Amazon and Co, why has it not happened? 

[Richard 1234]

1 hour ago, javelin10 said:

It's not about the total positive contribution made, it is what they put in minus what they take out.

Is that not the same thing?

[billpierce]

Is that not the same thing?

No

[matelot]

2 hours ago, javelin10 said:

I said protect our rights so our own government can't take them away.

I don't know who Prof Dustman is but why don't you come up with some proof that they don't?

I've worked with dozens of EU Citizens and not one of them has social housing. They all work bloody hard and pay their own rent and get mortgages as soon as they can. They are here to work. I suspect you've been swallowing a steady diet of drivel from some right-wing tabloids for too many years which explains your almost hysterical paranoia.

 

People can't get social housing because we've been selling it off faster then we can build it for the last 40 years; another problem entirely of our own making. We've got tons of 'green belt' and could easily meet our housing needs without building more than a tiny bit of it. Last I heard this meant 1% or so.

 

Wages are low because there are no unions anymore, and because minimum wage employers like Sports Direct and all those other parasites know their staff are supported by Tax Credits, which may keep unemployment low, but does it by creating jobs of the lowest quality possible. Wage competition from EU workers may add a small effect to this in some sectors like construction, but it is our own policies that have overwhelmingly kept so many people poor for decades. Blaming it on EU 'migrants' is just another way the Tories use gullible people, like yourself, to distract attention away from the real problems.

Ohh, let's get this right. You're basically saying EU migrants are awesome for Britain? If the migrants are so good why are their home countries so poor? If the migrants are so good should we not be charitable and send them to the third world to benefit places like Africa and Pakistan?

 

Wages are low in the UK because Brits are being undercut by millions of East European migrants. I've known people that were working in a warehouse through an agency. Then one week they're told not to come back and a bunch of East Europeans are doing their jobs for less money. I've seen migrants do skilled jobs in construction for £5 an hour!! 

 

Honestly, you should stop believing everything the BBC tells you and go and speak to people that work in construction or in a factory etc.

 

Honestly, the only really good thing about East European immigration is the number of fit Polish birds kicking about. I'd hope they'd make fat British birds raise their game a bit.

[matelot]

Bremoaners lie to us saying that we need EU migrants because they pay tax. How much does the average EU migrant earn? The ones I see working in shops etc would be lucky to earn £15k a year.

 

The income tax and NI paid on that salary is £1500 a year.... The NHS by itself costs on average £2000 a year per person. The average EU migrant is a drain to the taxpayer.....

[Mark J]

Here we go again.  Politicians have created the environment we inhabit.  Immigrants aren't the problem, you'll have noticed that there's no news reports about "The Jungle" in Calais anymore.  Why's that?  It's because they spoon feed you the nationalist shite and you suckle it down like a starved pig.

[javelin10]

1 hour ago, WesD said:

Your bending the situation to suit your point, they tend not hmm this is tosh it’s a mixed bag some work here and leave sure but lots stay and bring their families too. To be fair I have no problem with immigrants coming here to better their lives providing they work for it instead of taking handouts! 

Then you should have no problem with the vast majority of EU citizens living here. 

1 hour ago, WesD said:

 

Immigration is the nhs’s Biggest problem by far however they don’t document the problem why well to hide it. Last year there where more applications for an ehic card from outside the UK it’s a growing problem. Individuals use dodgy companies to gain a british postal address apply for ehic make a doctors appointment visit UK for appointment fly home have paperwork completed by dodgy company then low and behold dodgy company collects mail from UK address and posts ehic on all for a fee to the dodgy company so we pay for their care outside the UK! You couldn’t make it up!

 

The NHS doesn't agree. Every NHS manager I've heard comment of the fact say caring for an ageing population that is living longer is the number 1 challenge for the NHS. 'Immigration' by which I take it you mean 'health tourism' is such a minor problem they don't even think the cost of making sure everyone who should pay does pay will even match the amounts recovered. Tabloid scare stories.

1 hour ago, WesD said:

 

Imigrants if they have worked here holidayed here or even fly here to give birth can walk into any A&E and receive treatment without paying a penny for us to do that abroad we need ehic + insurance. 

 

Now ill bend facts to suit my agenda here goes ..... my UK adult aged 65 has not yet retired and has never been ill or unemployed he’s paid tax from 16 years of age and is still paying tax hasn’t really needed much from the NHS vs an EU immigrant aged 30 who’s been here for 5 years in construction has left his family back home so supports them by sending 50% of his salary Home also hasn’t needed the NHS but needed somewhere to live when he came with no money. Which outcome is better for UK?

In that single and wholly unrepresentative case....your UK 65 year old. Shame it doesn't hold for many of the the other 70million people here.

1 hour ago, WesD said:

 

I’m not going to persuade you to change your mind on in or out and you won’t change mine you are free to hold whatever opinion you like without being labelled narrow minded or retarded I will still respect your opinion you’ve earned it however a touch of class in return seems too much to hope for from camp remain. 

 

IMO their is no correct answer only a direction and a work in progress I have worked all of my life paid my my taxes served my country returned the forces investment by touring before leaving haven’t yet needed the nhs much and would like my opinion to be not heard or adhered but at the least respected without being labelled narrow minded or retarded and before you say those comments weren’t aimed at me directly you labelled half well more than half of the exit voters that way so statistically 1 in 2 leaver on here are narrow minded or retarded. I just thank god @matelot is on side leave with me 

 

only kidding @matelot  

I do respect your opinion; you are at least able to defend your point of view without being prejudiced or paranoid. A lot of people voted leave based only on prejudice and the immigration issue was as crucial in deciding the result as it was bogus. I just can't respect their kind of 'thinking'.

[javelin10]

1 hour ago, Richard 1234 said:

Is that not the same thing?

In saying 'positive contribution' what I meant to say was, you seemed to mention only what a retiree payed into the system, and not what they received  from the system, so you were missing half the equation.