Potus ???

[Johnsond]

2 minutes ago, Big J said:

 

Dresden and the firebombing of Hamburg were war crimes. Hamburg especially. As many people died in Operation Gommorah (lasting 8 days and 7 nights) as the entire Blitz.

Very few people actually knew the full scope of the operation and the truly evil details. Arthur "Bomber" Harris masterminded it, with the specific goal of maximising civilian casualties and terror within the German population. 

 

The sequence of bombing was as follows: first to be dropped were high explosive bombs to destroy windows and doors (creating the ideal conditions for the rapid spreading of fire). Then incediary rounds were dropped to create a firestorm, alongside timed high explosive to target emergency workers. 

 

A quarter ofbetter a million homes were destroyed. 37,000 (mostly) civilians died in a week. It was a war crime.

 

Another example is the Bengal famine of 1943. Churchill intentionally diverted food away from Bengal and continued rice exports as the population starved. This was to supply well fed European soldiers and top up European stockpiles. He referenced the Bengalis as "breeding like rabbits". 3 million Bengalis died.

 

Yes, the UK was fighting on the of what was right in WW2, but it doesn't absolve it of responsibility for heinous acts. 

 

Looking a little further back into the UK's past and you can take your pick of any number of atrocities, oppressions and wars for which the UK was entirely responsible. 

 

I detest this revisionist attitude towards British Imperialism as being a universally benevolent force in the world. Yes, it brought some benefit in some ways, but it was largely hugely negative. India, as an example, had between 25-35% of global GDP for the 1500 years preceding British colonialism, and 2% when the Brits left in 1947. 

Come to think of it, is there a single example of a country anywhere in the world that is objectively better for having being under colonial rule? Perhaps Australia and New Zealand, but their history with their aboriginal populations is chequered at best, and genocidal at worst.

 

It's a huge topic

I’m well aware of how the ops were carried out and how bomber command were ostracised at the end of hostilities. Politicians did what they always do, send lads to do horrendous deeds then turn their back on them once it’s done. Yeah it’s a huge topic, and your hatred for the UK is well known J but to refer to the attacks by bomber command as war crimes is just left wing BS with a huge benefit of hindsight. What do you suggest they did at the time J ?? Take it easy and try and fight like gentlemen whilst millions were being exterminated in Death camps still operating at full tilt. You are a clever guy J and good at putting your point across but looking back 80 years and applying your reasoning and moral views today is bollocks. If it were not for Churchill we would be either goose stepping now or the war would have dragged on for years more.  In WW2 terms the 37000 you describe is just a mere number. You forget to mention Russian or Japanese genocide by the way. Or even most recently Hamas slaughtering Christian’s 🤷‍♂️

J reality is human beings are the most evil creatures on the planet 🤷‍♂️. 
This looking back and guilt thing  is maybe a throwback to your roots but for me those men were heroes not criminals. 

 

[GarethM]

We had the same thing the other days, usual lack of context or even a alternative suggestion about what to do.

 

Typical limp wrist lefty logic, let's put flowers in the barrels of the guns you nasty war mongers.

 

Their logic is what allowed Europe to fall, those that didn't Sweden, UK, Switzerland survived because they knew talking didn't work but power did.

[sime42]

3 minutes ago, Johnsond said:

I’m well aware of how the ops were carried out and how bomber command were ostracised at the end of hostilities. Politicians did what they always do, send lads to do horrendous deeds then turn their back on them once it’s done. Yeah it’s a huge topic, and your hatred for the UK is well known J but to refer to the attacks by bomber command as war crimes is just left wing BS with a huge benefit of hindsight. What do you suggest they did at the time J ?? Take it easy and try and fight like gentlemen whilst millions were being exterminated in Death camps still operating at full tilt. You are a clever guy J and good at putting your point across but looking back 80 years and applying your reasoning and moral views today is bollocks. If it were not for Churchill we would be either goose stepping now or the war would have dragged on for years more.  In WW2 terms the 37000 you describe is just a mere number. You forget to mention Russian or Japanese genocide by the way. Or even most recently Hamas slaughtering Christian’s 🤷‍♂️

J reality is human beings are the most evil creatures on the planet 🤷‍♂️. 
This looking back and guilt thing  is maybe a throwback to your roots but for me those men were heroes not criminals. 

 

 

26.9 : 1

 

No worries Dave. I know you're a digital kinda guy, the discussion has moved onto more analogue concepts now. Something can still be very bad, even if it is not quite as bad as a very very bad thing.

 

I'd rank the actions of Israel in Gaza to be on a par with some of the worst Allied actions in WW2, but not as bad as the Nazis, (and Hamas).

 

Out of interest, do you differentiate at all between members of Hamas and the wider Gaza population, largely Palestinian?

 

 

[Johnsond]

3 minutes ago, sime42 said:

 

26.9 : 1

 

No worries Dave. I know you're a digital kinda guy, the discussion has moved onto more analogue concepts now. Something can still be very bad, even if it is not quite as bad as a very very bad thing.

 

I'd rank the actions of Israel in Gaza to be on a par with some of the worst Allied actions in WW2, but not as bad as the Nazis, (and Hamas).

 

Out of interest, do you differentiate at all between members of Hamas and the wider Gaza population, largely Palestinian?

 

 

Why do you keep putting up the numbers ratio. ?? We get it !!. WTF is a digital kind of guy 42 never mind analogue concepts. 
 

Something can still be very bad, even if it is not quite as bad as a very very bad thing. 
🤷‍♂️utter crap 42. 

Of course there are probably innocent victims as there are in any conflict but unfortunately HAMAS are the governing power as the Nazis were in Germany. War is brutal. The situation in the Middle East might be a bit better if the nations surrounding Israel stopped supporting the termination of its existence. 
Just as an aside have you ever been to Israel ?? Or any of the Arab states ?? I have and I can assure you that Isreal was amazing compared to any of the others. Mind you I did do a desert driving and navigation course in Jordan years ago which was awesome. 

Edited Monday at 13:31 by Johnsond

[Doug Tait]

The critical thing I think being missed is that the people of Dresden are comparable to the people in the camps and all the other victims of politically driven wars. They were not the 'third reich', they were victims.

They didn't want their historic city, filled with beautiful architecture, or their homes, their community, levelled to a pile of rubble with the bodies of their friends and family obliterated along with it any more than they wanted the people of Liverpool or Coventry to suffer that fate.

They wanted to work, go to the museum, take sunny peaceful walks in tree lined parks with dappled sun while their children played, much like the people of our cities 

[GarethM]

3 minutes ago, Johnsond said:

Why do you keep putting up the numbers ratio. ?? We get it !!. WTF is a digital kind of guy 42 never mind analogue concepts. 

Probably the sorts that would have to sit down for a sofa discussion regarding the rules of engagement whilst the enemy is actually firing their AK or one of Uncle Joes missing M16 from Afghanistan.

 

Can we shoot the fk that's just killed 3 of ours, please wait your call is important to us you are called 35 in the queue.

[GarethM]

1 minute ago, Doug Tait said:

The critical thing I think being missed is that the people of Dresden are comparable to the people in the camps and all the other victims of politically driven wars. They were not the 'third reich', they were victims.

They didn't want their historic city, filled with beautiful architecture, or their homes, their community, levelled to a pile of rubble with the bodies of their friends and family obliterated along with it any more than they wanted the people of Liverpool or Coventry to suffer that fate.

They wanted to work, go to the museum, take sunny peaceful walks in tree lined parks with dappled sun while their children played, much like the people of our cities 

You do remember a little speech, that said We are at war with nazi Germany ?.

 

You'll be down a Hamas rabbit hole of, you can only target x,y,z even tho the loo roll factory also makes potato masher grenades in the basement.

[Johnsond]

12 minutes ago, sime42 said:

I'd rank the actions of Israel in Gaza to be on a par with some of the worst Allied actions in WW2, but not as bad as the Nazis, (and Hamas).

Fortunately your opinion is worth Jack shit 

1 of those guys who fought for your freedom are worth a thousand of the likes of yourself. Absolutely clueless. This is a serious question have you ever been under fire, in a life or death your or him situation or been on active service?? 

[Doug Tait]

5 minutes ago, GarethM said:

You do remember a little speech, that said We are at war with nazi Germany ?.

 

You'll be down a Hamas rabbit hole of, you can only target x,y,z even tho the loo roll factory also makes potato masher grenades in the basement.

 

You're inventing my thoughts and beliefs to suit your argument.

 

What I do remember is the first hand accounts of people that were given no choice but to be subjected to hell. I'm not distinguishing between races or nationalities or religious beliefs.

[Johnsond]

11 minutes ago, Doug Tait said:

The critical thing I think being missed is that the people of Dresden are comparable to the people in the camps and all the other victims of politically driven wars. They were not the 'third reich', they were victims.

They didn't want their historic city, filled with beautiful architecture, or their homes, their community, levelled to a pile of rubble with the bodies of their friends and family obliterated along with it any more than they wanted the people of Liverpool or Coventry to suffer that fate.

They wanted to work, go to the museum, take sunny peaceful walks in tree lined parks with dappled sun while their children played, much like the people of our cities 

100% Correct Doug just as most of the soldiers on both sides did not want to be there or be killing people. But to look back and judge them as war criminals by using today’s moral standards is just stupidity. End of the day the Allied forces had an obligation to finish the war as quickly as possible with the minimum amount of their own casualties . If that meant destroying cities and inflicting huge numbers of civilian casualties along the way to shorten the war the prevailing mindset at the time was that it was a price that had to be paid by the enemy.