Potus ???

[wrsni]

Yes, it's part of the reason Brexit happened, that and the free movement of cheap labour from Eastern Europe in which Eastern European workers are exploited by low wages to increase the profits of the multi-national corporations.

 

Why do you think Jeremy Corbyn was so quiet in the run up to the EU referendum? His old labour values were at odds with workers being exploited by globalisation. He also recognises why Trump won by taking blue collar former democrat voters away from Clinton, voters who she'd abandoned to the whim of global market forces.

 

That is so bang on that I'd like to fill several pages with those stupid little thumbs up smilie things.

 

But more importantly, it's also why every single hard working taxpayer irrespective of gender, race, or religion, should have supported brexit, and the election of trump,

 

..............and if they didn't, then be grateful that enough did.

[agg221]

so you're happy to see towns and cities and entire communities left on the scrapheap due to globalisation?

.

 

No I'm not happy that towns end up in recession and communities have the heart torn out of them, but trying to turn the clock back to some rose-tinted view of the past, running away and hiding behind literal or metaphorical walls is not a solution.

 

The starting point always seems to be people creating themselves as victims. It's not their fault, blame it on someone else. The language evolves, from terms which are now deemed so offensive that I can't write them on this forum, to 'foreigners' and latterly 'immigrants' but what they all have in common is identifying people as 'other', amplifying differences and engendering a sense of fear. It makes for good scapegoats, if you want a nice simplistic explanation rather than to address the root cause.

 

Words like 'exploited' get used to describe people working on a lower cost base, but quite simply if your basic living costs are £1000 a month based on market forces for rent, food etc then you need to earn (or get given by the state) that much to live, whereas if you live in a lower cost-base economy, say £500 a month, you can have exactly the same standard of living for half the money - just look at the variation in cost of rented housing across the UK and you can immediately see the effect in miniature. Globalise it and you realise why it is pointless trying to recreate manufacturing jobs in countries where the cost base is too high, as the goods produced would simply be unaffordable, so the whole economic cycle of production/consumption fails. You could try to drop the cost base, reducing housing and food costs etc but so far nobody has worked out how to do this. It hasn't even worked in Greece which was the best attempt so far that I am aware of.

 

Ultimately, you could in theory go back to this mythical point in history when everything was supposedly great, if you close all borders and operate as a closed state - North Korea does this quite well today and the entire Soviet empire managed it for decades. I wouldn't say they were exactly known for being great places to live though.

 

So those are the reasons why not to do it. What to do instead? You can see some interesting possibilities from where regeneration has been attempted before. The thing is though, I don't think people want to listen to this. They want a magic quick fix and are listening to people who promise one. Anything less palatable will be dismissed as being 'establishment' or 'from experts' which are now derogatory terms. The current mood is one where people with no knowledge, experience or understanding seem to feel they are the best people to address complex global issues, in some cases not even having bothered to read around the basics - they pick the one view which aligns with what they have already decided and dismiss anyone who presents a different view as biased.

 

Where I work we have a library. The librarian has as her email signature the line 'three months in the laboratory often saves an hour in the library', but it seems that we are now doomed to an enormous experiment since nothing other than the outcome will convince a large proportion of the population of both the US and the UK that magic doesn't work (and even then they will probably deny it and claim it's someone else's fault).

 

Alec

[wrsni]

No I'm not happy that towns end up in recession and communities have the heart torn out of them, but trying to turn the clock back to some rose-tinted view of the past, running away and hiding behind literal or metaphorical walls is not a solution.

 

I think you over-estimate the potential impacts of both the EU referendum and Presidential election outcomes.

 

Things will not change overnight and any changes that are at all will be gradual, the world order is too large and powerful for anything or anyone to change it massively and/or quickly. And while I think change is required, I can also see that on balance this is probably a good thing.

 

Globalisation will not disappear, the concept of the huge and powerful multi-national company and it's ability to wield power will not disappear, developed western democracies will not become isolationist (your N Korea analogy is a bit OTT is it not?), people will continue to go to other countries to live and work when beneficial to all concerned, etc, etc.

 

However, many of these concepts are reaching levels where they are starting to become problematic (at best) and my hope is that these results are a signal to the establishment that there are limits to what us common people at the bottom of the food chain will tolerate.

 

Surely it's particularly appropriate today, to appreciate that these messages are better conveyed by a democratic vote than by doing nothing and ending up with violence.

Edited November 13, 2016 by wrsni

[matelot]

The starting point always seems to be people creating themselves as victims. It's not their fault, blame it on someone else. The language evolves, from terms which are now deemed so offensive that I can't write them on this forum, to 'foreigners' and latterly 'immigrants' but what they all have in common is identifying people as 'other', amplifying differences and engendering a sense of fear. It makes for good scapegoats, if you want a nice simplistic explanation rather than to address the root cause.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that there are no victims from mass migration?

 

In the UK we've had ten years of austerity. People are getting their benefits cut and they are not enough council houses to go round. It's understandable that people get angry when they are struggling and see migrants skip the queue for houses and get benefits. It's also understandable that people get angry when they lose their jobs and the next week a migrant is doing their job for less money.

 

Then there are monthly news stories about Brits from a migrant background being arrested for plotting to kill indigenous Brits. It's hardly surprising that people don't like migrants when so many of them have been arrested for plotting to kill people.

[difflock]

Are you seriously suggesting that there are no victims from mass migration?

 

In the UK we've had ten years of austerity. People are getting their benefits cut and they are not enough council houses to go round. It's understandable that people get angry when they are struggling and see migrants skip the queue for houses and get benefits. It's also understandable that people get angry when they lose their jobs and the next week a migrant is doing their job for less money.

 

Then there are monthly news stories about Brits from a migrant background being arrested for plotting to kill indigenous Brits. It's hardly surprising that people don't like migrants when so many of them have been arrested for plotting to kill people.

 

Ah ha Hi-lighted the crucial statement, that perfectly identifies the cause of our current sorry state.

The root cause was the quite understandable desire to "de-stigmatize" the situation of lassies who "fell pregnant" outside of wed-lock.

But the inevitable consequence, once the bleeding heart Liberal PC Feminists types got in charge, was the creation of a rampant benefits culture.

Crudely put "breed for profit", well at least free housing and living expenses, then Maslows hierarchy of needs kicks in and we end up in todays sorry state, with an ever expanding uneducated ill-mannered unemployable very expensive* to keep underclass .

And need to import furriners to actually work, some of whom are unfortunately then attracted to our generous benefits system.

Tough, but true.

*expensive due to lifestyle choices putting enourmous extra costs on the NHS, Councils, Social Services, Police and Insurances.

Edited November 13, 2016 by difflock

[TimberCutterDartmoor]

Ah ha Hi-lighted the crucial statement, that perfectly identifies the cause of our current sorry state.

The root cause was the quite understandable desire to "de-stigmatize" the situation of lassies who "fell pregnant" outside of wed-lock.

But the inevitable consequence, once the bleeding heart Liberal PC Feminists types got in charge, was the creation of a rampant benefits culture.

Crudely put "breed for profit", well at least free housing and living expenses, then Maslows hierarchy of needs kicks in and we end up in todays sorry state, with an ever expanding uneducated ill-mannered unemployable very expensive* to keep underclass .

And need to import furriners to actually work, some of whom are unfortunately then attracted to our generous benefits system.

Tough, but true.

*expensive due to lifestyle choices putting enourmous extra costs on the NHS, Councils, Social Services, Police and Insurances.

 

Can't argue with that.

[Gary Prentice]

Ah ha Hi-lighted the crucial statement, that perfectly identifies the cause of our current sorry state.

The root cause was the quite understandable desire to "de-stigmatize" the situation of lassies who "fell pregnant" outside of wed-lock.

But the inevitable consequence, once the bleeding heart Liberal PC Feminists types got in charge, was the creation of a rampant benefits culture.

Crudely put "breed for profit", well at least free housing and living expenses, then Maslows hierarchy of needs kicks in and we end up in todays sorry state, with an ever expanding uneducated ill-mannered unemployable very expensive* to keep underclass .

And need to import furriners to actually work, some of whom are unfortunately then attracted to our generous benefits system.

Tough, but true.

*expensive due to lifestyle choices putting enourmous extra costs on the NHS, Councils, Social Services, Police and Insurances.

 

[matelot]

But the inevitable consequence, once the bleeding heart Liberal PC Feminists types got in charge, was the creation of a rampant benefits culture.

Crudely put "breed for profit", well at least free housing and living expenses, then Maslows hierarchy of needs kicks in and we end up in todays sorry state, with an ever expanding uneducated ill-mannered unemployable very expensive* to keep underclass .

 

Don't get me wrong, I think the welfare state needs heavily pruned. However it pains me that Brits are getting their benefits cut while at the same time migrants can come to the UK and get benefits.

 

I think we've all heard that many guys coming out the forces end up being homeless. I think we can all agree that someone that served for the country should get a council house before some migrant from Somalia/ Ethiopia/ Romania etc.

 

In most parts of the world politicians put the needs of their citizens first. It's really only in the West that politicians look after the needs of migrants. I can't help thinking Trump hasn't proposed to do anything that most world politicians do..

[wrsni]

I think we've all heard that many guys coming out the forces end up being homeless.

 

With all due respect mate, and I want to tread very carefully around this one, today especially, but I think that's one which may have been overused for political capital.

 

By and large, the Army treats it's leavers pretty well, most of them take advantage of that and integrate back in to as normal a life as is possible given what some of them have been through, a few obviously don't. These ones need, and usually get, extra help (as they should).

 

But their misfortune, or whatever you want to call it, shouldn't really be used as part of a completely different debate, nor should it be center stage of any debate.

 

For one, how it's portrayed is often largely inaccurate, and secondly I find it quite disrespectful to the forces themselves.

 

No offense.

[TIMON]

Ah ha Hi-lighted the crucial statement, that perfectly identifies the cause of our current sorry state.

The root cause was the quite understandable desire to "de-stigmatize" the situation of lassies who "fell pregnant" outside of wed-lock.

But the inevitable consequence, once the bleeding heart Liberal PC Feminists types got in charge, was the creation of a rampant benefits culture.

Crudely put "breed for profit", well at least free housing and living expenses, then Maslows hierarchy of needs kicks in and we end up in todays sorry state, with an ever expanding uneducated ill-mannered unemployable very expensive* to keep underclass .

And need to import furriners to actually work, some of whom are unfortunately then attracted to our generous benefits system.

Tough, but true.

*expensive due to lifestyle choices putting enourmous extra costs on the NHS, Councils, Social Services, Police and Insurances.

 

 

Sad but true. We've taught a whole generation (or two) to be completely helpless.

Now it's the norm and the the liberal agenda will defend the "rights" of the helpless over any kind of intervention.