Retired Climber

Do you think the 'rationale' may have anything to do with what they perceive an arb to be worth, per day, per hour etc? You know what I'm getting at. I can't believe you still think I'm wrong, having had a chance to have a ponder about it, but you still seem to just dance around the points, rather than moving towards an actual answer. Anyway ,maybe us discussing it is pointless, so I'll simply summarise my point. In a nutshell, one of the reasons that arb ( especially as an employee) is very poorly paid, is because the general public think it's a fairly basic, manual labour kind of occupation, and would struggle with the cognitive dissonance created by thinking they were paying their arb more than (what they would term) 'professionals'.

Out of interest, where do you think the figure in their head comes from? What do they use to set the original anchor? I'm not trying to be a smart arse, I'm genuinely interested in your opinion. This is basically what I do for a living, and I usually have these conversations with other behavioural economists / psychologists / economists, so your layman's opinions on the matter are very interesting.

You should be thoroughly ashamed.

That is an excellent point, and one I'd not really considered. Maybe our 'macro' economic principles aren't macro enough. I've been thinking about issues in the UK in isolation, but comparison to other countries is something of a revelation.

I'm thinking more macro than micro as the whole point in the thread is about problems that exist in an entire industry. To understand the micro, we need to understand the macro and the broader economic principles (yes, I know you already know that). Apologies about the working class comment, it was a bit of a hat tip to comments on another thread. I personally think the whole idea of class is very outdated, and completely agree that most of us now operate outside of the class norms, into which were were born / pigeonholed / wrestled into. One of your sentences summed up my position on this nicely. The climbers get crappy pay as the amount of money available is finite. The level at which it reaches its peak is due to the points I made to Mick in a few posts on this thread.

We aren't going round in circles; I actually thought we were getting somewhere. Anyway, yep, good plan. Let's pick it up again another day then. Enjoy the footy.

If all the pruning, hedge cutting and other non-essential jobs reduce due to cost there will be less work generally. How do you think that will effect the prices of the essential jobs?

I know. Same rules apply.

Whilst I agree with you from a micro-economics viewpoint, and agree that the approach will work for invividuals and their businesses, to fix an industry we surely need to concentrate on the macro environment. Whether we like it or not, prices are limited by the market's avoidance of cognitive dissonance; they simply can't bring themselves to pay above a certain level for someone doing a working class job.

I'd say completely the opposite. How do you think the 'going rate' for a job is set? It's the market and the perceived value that dictate price. We, as business owners, need to work out the best way to get the job done for somewhere near the price the market dictates to us. When Mrs Miggins decides to have you in to do some formative pruning, you aren't just competing on price with other arbs, you are competing with the new sofa, the holiday, or new wardrobe she could have instead of a nicely pruned tree. Your price can only rise to the point at which she would still prefer the tree work over the holiday. Part of this decision is based on the value she puts on you and your time, and not just the value of having a nice tree. The 'sod you, I'm not paying that' limit is very powerful. I agree that a shortage of climbers should put prices up, in theory, but what may actually happen is that less competent climbers simply fill the void.

It's one of the reasons that employed arb salaries are so low. This has a detrimental effect on the industry, who wants to work within it, and who wants to try to make a career out of it. We can call ourselves skilled professionals all we like, but it's the market's perception that largely dictates rates of pay. If an industry has the ' thick kid's job' image, it's hard to drag the pay out of the gutter.

The VAT threshold is a bit of a red herring. I've said this before, bit anyone trading under the threshold is just playing at running a business. If you, as a proper business, don't know how to differentiate your offering from those who are under the threshold, you have a fundamental flaw in your marketing strategy.

That's the same in loads of industries though, not just arb. Having staff who think they are self employed (because you told them they are) is a very widespread problem.

In this country, all the trades and manual jobs are seen as ' what the thick kids do'. I wasn't a thick kid, actually, I was one of the cleverest kids in the school. I competed for the top spot at school with people who are now oncologists, surgeons, and very good barristers. Numerous times I'd be asked why I was doing tree work, with the presumption that life had obviously gone very wrong for me. I did it because I wanted to, not because I didn't have options. I retired from climbing when I was in my mid 30's, and now have a career that's much more acceptable to my peers. Most people who have known me for less than 10 years would be amazed that I actually used to be a proficient climber. Most people who do what I do now couldn't use a pair of secateurs enthusiasticly without giving themselves a nose bleed. Arb and manual work generally is frowned upon because a lot of people need to bolster their fragile egos by trying to convince themselves that what they do is ' better' because they sit in an office and wear a shirt and tie. Additionally, anyone can call themself an arb, and the NPTC units are so incredibly easy to pass that they are just a joke. Oh, and the Arb Association think you are all a bunch of scumbags unless you are employed by an arb approved contractor. 😁

Haha, Steve's post did have a certain "bloody hell, he's had a good idea. I never knew he had it in him" feel to it.

That would make absolutely no difference. Minimum wage increases do not act upon an economy in isolation.

I don't mean this in a derogatory way, and I'm not taking a cheap dig, so please take this question in the spirit it's written. Do you have much experience with the law, courts, and what happens in the English legal system?

Not everyone asks " how high?", when someone tells them to jump.

What a load of nonsense.

The 211 is far superior; it's a small proper saw. The 181 is a toy saw. Go with as few gimmicks as you can get. The most basic versions of saws are always the best.

That is exceptionally rare, and near impossible to get in a garden environment.

Didn't come with a manual. I reckon she's an ex-demonstator or something cos apparently a couple of other lads had a go before I got her. Maybe one of them has the manual. 😁

Haha, my Mrs is a 1983 model; I don't think she looks as old as those saws though.

Get your solicitor to add your lost income to the claim as an 'uninsured loss'.

I'd have more respect for them if they had come back and said "yep, that's what we think of you all, now do one". 😁