ESS

No, I am not having a go at you, that's why I questioned how comfortable you would be with £35 /hr.. Since mechanised harvesting the attitude of "they are only cutters" has become norm. As long as that attitude prevails then things wont change.By the same token if someone is paying a few quid more it doesn't make it right or what someone is worth. I don't agree however that even on difficult sites there isn't a piece rate that will fit the job.Cutters earn what they are worth, those that are lesser able learn the quicker and easier ways of doing the job, or starve. Even in my 60s I was putting the equivalent of £35/hr out on piece, I do not believe that cutters should prop bad extraction up from their rates. If a job loses money because of extraction then that is the contractor that priced the job that should take the knock.Indirectly that's expecting a cutter to pay someone elses finance, just the same as a contractor saying he can only afford £160 a day for edge trees, why? I don't agree that only the top 1% are the only ones worth £35/hr, and quite frankly find that a little arrogant that you feel you are in a position to judge that. There will not be a top 1% if current trends continue, in the past people like myself brought younger people up through the trade, but I will not cut for the rates a lot of people are offering now, how much you enjoy a job isn't a currency, its what you have to spend in Tesco that matters too. An inexperienced cutter has the same set up and running costs as an experienced guy,but when experienced guys are asked to cut for bugger all there is no middle ground.I still enjoy cutting, but only good timber at a price.I can get more sat on a machine than most cutters are expected to work for, a lot of experienced guys take the same view. I started in the industry mid 70s, cutters were highly respected as they were the key to the job. Even back then a cutter on piece could afford lodge when away from home, and yet now there are guys sleeping in cars to do the job. Doesn't stack up does it ?

I happen to know the guy from Scotland that is on the current site, and would doubt he needs any guidance regarding specs. The outcome of recent talks within the industry, and this was based on cutters producing their running costs was that cutters need to be on a minimum of £35/hr, I would agree with that as a minimum. Would you have a problem with paying that if you say there is plenty of money available for everyone? As I said earlier , a lot of machine ops are on £20 /hr plus benefits, yet cutters are expected to work for less in real terms. How does that work? I was with a contractor from your area a couple of weeks back who said contractors were screaming for cutters, its not just there, its a national issue and something that will need addressing before new blood can be encouraged into the industry. In my opinion if an industry needs to import labour from various parts of the country to do the work the least they deserve in return is money that reflects their worth, a decent bed, decent food and decent working conditions, and be able to afford all that. I have spent many years in the past in caravans, but I wont now. If a job cannot allow for the above then in my book its not a job,..other industries manage it, why should the timber trade be different?

Far better idea. I thought the Japa was far too light in construction for what was expected of it. Hope you get it sorted , sounds like the fillet would be a good investment.

Oh, that surprises me, would have thought 3/8s as a minimum. I had a Japa many years ago, bought it new and was glad to see the back of it. Seemed to spend as much time changing belts as we did cutting.

Ah ok, what pitch chain do they run on 3/8 or .404 ?

Ok, fair enough, as I say I am not familiar ,only used processors with circs. Out of interest what is the fillet, is` it a rubbing plate or backing plate of some description ?

There were a couple of JD tractors stolen a few years ago from a Sussex dealer that turned up in Cyprus. It came to light through the serial number being used when parts were ordered.

Not familiar with processor bars/chains , but.. has it run a chain that has had rakers lower at one side? that would kick the chain over.

As an indication of what I am saying about cutters rates,... the last time I felled on piece was over 2 years ago, bearing in mind I am in my 60s. The first site there was roadside timber stolen so we never got a true weight, but it still returned an average of just over £210 per man day. The next site we were cutting in 28 degree heat and were short measured on that one too, but returned over £270 per man day. The next one @£9 /t returned £235 man day accommodation provided, 3 days on this site I could barely walk, never mind cut, because of my years on saws etc. average working day was around 7 hrs cutting. Anyone that says cutting is good for you needs to be asking those that have been doing it for 20-30 years before making those kind of statements. It screws bodies . but... if you look at those figures which was the true market value for the job why would I want to cut at £20 /hr ? Why do you think the industry is short of fallers ?

I didn't say market rate. I have cut in your area a few years ago, the rate then was £160 8 hours on site, winter hours,so how much different is that to what you are paying? Heres the thing that tends to get overlooked,..when a site is priced for harvesting there is a rate for cutting and a rate for extraction(including winching where necessary) and that becomes a combined rate for doing the job. On the site you are working from the photos and my own experience I would have had the handcut rate at £9/t.,i also said I would expect 25t in an 8 hour shift, you said your guys were producing 30t in a slightly longer day, you also quoted £8-9 /tWhich ever way you look at it neither of those sets of figures amount to £200 a day, as a cutter I know which I would rather have. The true market rate is £9/t if that's the rate put on the job,if it was £8/t put on the job for cutting then that would be the market rate. What I actually said was I didn't think £200 a day for skilled cutters was enough, for that matter neither does the rest of the industry. There are a lot of machine ops on £20/hour now, + in some cases a vehicle and fuel card on top,no saw expenses etc, How does it work that a guy on a saw in the same industry is working for less ? yet you are the one that's saying that you wouldn't want to work for the harvesting rates I quoted and there is enough money in timber for higher rates ? lets be fair here. I will always stand the corner of cutters,thats where I started, you only need to break the costs down , the mileage some of these guys are doing to see £200 doesn't go very far.

Nobody wants to work for those rates, and yes there is plenty of money available for more to be passed to contractors. .Its actually marketing companies that are competing for parcels that create the situation, but the industry has always worked that way.Machines have become faster , and harvesters are turning 400t + days out on the right sites. The harvesting contractor made a good job on the site I mentioned, and even though it was pine there was still a 90-95% brash recovery, which in turn saved the landowner around 60k in rake and burn costs, plus obviously the environmental benefits. 250t a day average on this site would be making money, which was easily achievable in that particular crop. Its horses for courses at the end of the day, and we still hand cut if its advantageous to the operation. I could argue that there is less physical risk involved in machine harvesting as opposed to hand cut. Brash recovery is becoming an important factor now, and obviously mechanised harvesting favours this, even from thinnings where conditions allow. The company I am with have invested heavily in a low impact harvester/forwarder combo that is due any day now, but it has its economic limitations and I realise that. I am a strong campaigner for shorter working weeks for operators, as I am for increased rates for cutters.Personally I think £200 a day for a skilled cutter falls way short of the mark,there has been a lot of open discussion in the industry recently and hopefully things will change on that front.

Any machine will make marks if the conditions are wet . The reality is that an 8 wheel harvester will exert no more ground pressure than a tractor/trailer outfit , same with 8 wheel forwarder, plus the bonus of 8 wheel drive producing less wheel spin. We have just lifted 150 acres of brash that was harvested without harvester/forwarder running on brash mat to aid brash recovery.Harvesting was completed in December and there was virtually no marking.Even header racks have not pushed through. Its easy to say harvesters make a mess, I started in this industry when skidders were used, and we made some awful messes on some sites. If you were to look at the ground conditions on some of the sites that harvester/forwarders are working anything would make a mess, the reason these machines are working these sites is because nothing else could that would fit into the financial constraints put on contractors,as an example ,the brash site I have just mentioned was harvested /forwarded for £6.20/t.No other method could come anywhere near that . The highest percentage of timber sasles is competitive tender, and most landowners for obvious reasons look at the bottom line. Some sites have to be worked in unfavourable conditions to meet time constraints, that's part of forestry, we cannot make weather to suit us. I am old school , I have spent over 40 years on saws, but things have changed, I would imagine a lot of contractors would prefer an investment of 50-60k to make a living as opposed to 650k for one outfit,but handcutting is being discouraged now, particularly on steep sites,plus a lack of experienced cutters to produce the goods. Harvesters are comfortably working 30-35 degree inclines, and with the introduction of T winches this is getting pushed further. Its what the industry demands. just like the move fromhorses to tractors many years ago.

Only a fool would pay £60 standing. You can not make a living in forestry paying that amount, no matter how efficient or expensive or productive. ...but companies are. Market forces dictate it. Not sure how you decide how someone can make money at that, or not ,surely you would have to look at the sale price to decide that ?

So how is your cutting costing £8-9t as stated earlier?

What do you mean by cheapest,wasnt it a standing sale you bid on? Yes, you stated recently you were paying cutters £200 for a 10 hour day? That's ok for the area , but not what would be considered a very good rate.Good cutters in that size /quality of timber would cut 25t in 8 hours, I would put £9/t on hand cutting that.

Yes, I know about the variables , I have been in the industry 45 years. Gojng from the photos the job could have been done by mechanical harvester, £10-£12/t production costs .

Oh ok, in a previous post you stated 380t production, in 8 days ? I worked it out on 7.that would have averaged 54t/day.

Chip is making more than that r/s in your area too.

Not disputing that, but the roadside value of logs that people are quoting is far from a gross margin figure. Standing spruce is making in excess of £60t now, so your return looks quite low.

If you were to break the figures down it works out at 54t roadside a day average, but surely this is 2 machines costed in ?

Its what I do every day, and have done for many years, The company I am with now run around £2m of forestry kit alone. Believe me I am constantly looking at costs.

...but the timber is to buy.

...and the landowner gets ?

£40 a tonne what for sawlogs? If you were to break the figures down the daily average for 7 days is 54t/day roadside based on the figures provided.i.e 380t roadside stock. The money is never earned until stock is roadside. Not sure what your £40t sawlogs figure relates to ?

Not quite sure how you have arrived at £1.80, however there are machinery costs to build into the equation and your time as you put it. Quick reckon up, with hand cutting costs it will be costing you 18-20 / tonne to actually do the job .