Timber Man

As far as physically severing that tree there is only one person responsible, regardless of what RAMS say, time constraints etc etc he had the right to say no, just like a climber has a right to say no if he is unhappy about a climb.

I think proving adequate training for all involved could cause problems. It is critical to make full use of the hinge and toes, if you cut high or remove toes you are reducing the surface area where it is needed most. Removing toes, particularly on a leaning tree is increasing the problem.

Surely the cutter is to blame, he is the man with the saw. In any assisted fell the cutter has overall control, it is up to him to give clear instructions to everyone involved. Its basically a case of experience or lack of. Even without the wind pulling that tree at that angle is putting a lot of strain on the holding side of the hinge,..a few degrees backlean and you have a problem. Getting a tree of that size to come up and over the top to get the weight moving forwards needs weight and traction. Quite often in these situations even a tractor winch isn't fast enough, you have to drive them over. Even if the tree had been gobbed in line with the road it fell across and pull line at 45 degrees or slightly more would have had a different outcome, providing the tree was sound. Even putting the rope round the right side of the tree can make a big difference to a pull, on something like this at 45 degrees pull line up over a substantial branch at the right height at the left side of the tree as we look at it and back down the tree and tie off at chest/head height would give substantially more control over the pull. In effect you are part swinging the tree , your pulling machine doesn't have to travel far, leave a substantial hinge LOW down and it will bring the tree round. As far as tall trees are concerned in wind you tend to get a circular motion going on , I have felled stands of pops and on a windy day the top of the tree could affectively be tracing a 20-30 ft diameter circle.

I agree, and if its not visibly obvious bore a saw in, then have a rethink.

For sure, a redirect is good providing you can get the right height to pull , positioning the truck to pull may have been a problem here, hard to tell from the vid. In this particular case in my opinion the rope was set far too high for the distance the truck was away from the tree hey? If you look at the angle of rope it is very steep, actually lifts the back of the truck quite a lot before it picks up momentum.

Personally I wouldn't have wanted to pull it with that truck, full stop, but despite that it was actually being pulled towards the road when it was already weighted in that direction, a hinge cannot hold long enough under those circumstances long enough for the tree to come over the top. Once it leaves the hinge it takes the nearest way to the floor hey, that's gravity. Assuming there was room the tree should have been gobbed at an angle away from the road, ..it may have been ,I cannot see from the vid, but if it was pulling from there was pointless, it would only snap out. Gobbed at an angle away from the road and pulled from a slightly offset angle, enough to tip and swing it.

Oh ok, my mistake, I am a faller, its what I have done for a lot of years, and personally I would have taken that tree on as a fell, but on my terms as the faller. A lot of timber loses its holding ability when the sap is up,poplar will split as easily as ash, particularly with sap up. One of the biggest mistakes so many arb boys make in felling is cutting too high and removing toes. The best holding timber is always at the very bottom of a tree.

Perhaps I worded it badly. What I was trying to say was if you are not happy with the RAMS you are quite within your rights to question them and not do the job until it has been reviewed.

I agree.

Correct, and even though someone may have written RAMS for it to be done that way the man doing the job has the right to question it. In a situation like this surely once you put the saw in the tree you are taking liability on your own shoulders, in any assisted pull the man with the saw has control over the situation.

Not to mention PUWER regs, In essence its an assisted fell .I think a court would take some convincing that anyone had received adequate training in assisted felling with a truck. I had a dispute a few years back because I wasn't happy about the legalities of pushing trees over with a digger. Technically under PUWER its not legal and would give you problems in a courtroom. A digger was designed for digging.

I am with you on that one Jon

Well its fair to say we can only judge on what we can see, and certainly theres a lot wrong with the height of pull line and the angle of pull. Tbh pulling/pushing any tree with something that was not designed for the job would cause problems in a courtroom, supposing that tree had gone backwards, it does happen ? Is a truck or chipper designed for pulling trees ? not at all .

I would assume that there would be RAMS written up for this job, but they are there to be questioned. Just because someone has written them up doesn't make it right, the responsibility surely comes down to the man with the saw in his hand.

Any way of finding out what it is,..say lucas, that way you may save a few quid getting service exchange on one.

Most of them can be repaired, a starter motor has to be in a pretty bad way before its written off.

I work in the south most of the time, but my rate still applies to the north when I work there. 50% difference in rates is quite a big difference.

Well youre not the only one that has worked all over and from the bottom up, 43 years in fact in my case, and yes I have worked all over and my rate is my rate regardless. I am from the north, and still work there from time to time, but on my rate. Perhaps it is you that's wrong, seems to me that if your rate was so attractive then people would be lining up for the work. It could be a case of put too low a value on good subbies and you don't get them, not the other way round as you put it.

Why should there be a regional difference in rates, the works the same and a days a day wherever it is ? If it is the going rate as people put it, whos going rate is it ? if its the contractor that is making that decision then that's not really how subbying works, a subby puts his price on his labour etc, not the other way round. He also runs the risk of non days, bad weather etc etc that someone on the books doesn't. It doesn't matter how much you like and want to do a job if it doesn't stack up financially its not a job, its down to how much you have to spend in Tescos that matters. £20 a day is £400 a month, not a small amount when you multiply it up.

I had a large tractor one recored for under £200 a couple of years back.

Back in the day when we had large scale turners Alder was in demand from them. Clog soles were made from Alder, but in more recent years there has been a swing to Beech .

What lengths are they in? Will it all be free of metal ?

What are you looking for roadside? I may be able to place it for you,..anything sells at a price.

Oh yes.

Quite true, but the containerised price isn't as attractive as it seems when you break it down.