Pedroski

You're under-pricing and building up to have problems. £15 for a 15 minute mow is more like it. But not £15 to weed and seed and do everything else. Have you got a mower? Strimming and raking is no way to do the job efficiently. You're also far more likely to take out a window or injure some with a stone flicked from a strimmer than you are with a mower. As for the patio, you could have swept it off first to make sure no stones (or blown it if you had a blower) and then buzzed the weeds and moss off with the strimmer. Much quicker than the hoe. As for the weed and feed, and the seeding, thing - follow instructions as it makes things easier and you're less likely to have problems.

Sounds like a good racquet, that one.

I know where you're coming from Dean. But the way we've subbed certain works out before doesn't always work out as an extra cost to the customer. We've often subbed out large amounts of brickwork to someone we know when we want a lot done fast, and we've made money on it. But the way we've made money is by charging the customer the fella's normal going rate (i.e. the rate he would charge the customer), but then the fella does a lower rate for us because he regularly gets work through us. We've also subbed out timber building supply and erection and made a profit on that. Not by charging the customer extra (we charge the customer the going rate) but by getting the 15% trade discount from the building supply and erection firm. It's the same with the tree work - charge the customer whatever a firm would charge, i.e. £500 for the job and have a bona-fide sub in to do it. The customer still pays what he would pay if he got a firm in, the bona-fide proper guys doing the tree work still get paid what they want (typically more than they would get paid by a firm), and any difference goes to our business, which we earn by making sure everything goes smoothly. The customer wouldn't know where to start or who to trust if he was getting a subby in himself so he wouldn't benefit from a lower price. He's paying no more that he would do getting a big firm in. You might say that this is taking jobs away from other arb firms, BUT it is GIVING work to bona-fide sub-contractors. And yes, before you ask, the company my mate owns and who I do a lot of work for does have full PL and EL to cover tree work.

George, read my earlier post. I really don't understand what the problem is. Think about it for a minute. If you do regular tree work for one customer, and he asks you to do some hedge cutting or mowing, would you: a) turn round and say you can't do that sort of work and suggest he call a landscape firm, running the risk of then losing that client completely to the firm he calls in, or b) price the work up, with a price that will cover all contingencies, and arrange the landscaping by getting in a firm known to you and who you trust 100%? Another alternative, if you have the capabilities, qualifications and skills required, is to actually do it yourself. It makes absolutely no business sense to say to a regular client to call someone else in. It also makes no business sense to recommend another firm either. We did this once, and lost someone we had as a client for over a decade, because the recommended firm decided they liked the look of the whole thing. Someone said last week that to succeed, if someone asks you to do something, you should never say "I can't because.......", but instead you should say "I can if......". In this case, "I can if I get someone in to do it". There is absolutely no moral obligation to say you can't do something and suggest he get another firm in himself. I'm not morally obliged to hand work completely over to someone else. What I am morally obliged to do is to ensure that everyone is treated fairly. So by treating client fairly and sorting stuff out for him, by getting in a bona-fide sub-contractor or firm to do the work on my behalf, and by paying that firm whatever rate they quote, then all is good. I've not done anyone out of any work, and I've protected my work. So what if I cream a bit of profit of it - I've sorted everything out for my client, I've kept my client which means I can still support my family, and in turn can support the local butcher, greengrocer etc, by spending money in there, I keep the bank from knocking on my door. It's what business is all about.

I said in an earlier post..... on this one last tree he went chicken. Been doing the tree work for 20+ years and something didn't feel right.

It's not quite like that. He doesn't advertise tree work. And the guy doing the tree work is his brother. And yep, you might as well do landscaping jobs as well if it helps fill time and earn money, provided you get in skilled landscapers who know what they're doing, not just some unskilled labour. It's the same with the trees. Wouldn't dream of having an unskilled firm in to do it.

He's not doing tree work..... he's getting someone in to do tree work, and it comes off the back of other work he does Everyone's a winner - the arbs get work, the client gets the work done and mate keeps a customer. Can't just hand it straight over to the arb, because next thing you blink and find the arb is in there cutting friggin' grass and fencing

He was a good climber and had many years experience under his belt. Nobody, including himself, knew he was going go turn chicken. Just didn't like this particular part of the tree - it was a tall (approx 50ft) thin (about 12" dia) branch going out at a steep angle away from the main stem, and the main stem TIP was at same height as the part of the tall thin branch that needed bringing back. Personally, I would have talked the client into having the whole branch taken off. Any why, pray tell, would my mate, who isn't a climber, want to do the tree himself?

There's a firm round our way who mainly does fencing. They're cheaper than anyone else, and advertises themselves as easy to afford. Because they're so cheap they work Saturday to earn enough. Bonkers. Thinking of booking them to do our fencing jobs. We could drive them to the jobs, get all materials delivered, they could use our tools, and we could just sit in the truck and turn a bigger profit than if we do the job ourselves. Madness, I say. Don't know how some people do it.

And whatever you do, do NOT feel guilty about trying to get more from it. After all, it's YOUR land they want to use to enable THEM to make MORE PROFIT!

I just leave the truck windows open with my favourite death metal CDs playing full blast. Customer love it because it helps drown out the noise of the chipper :thrasher: But on a serious note.... what is the battery life on the Sordins like? And are they ok in the rain?

It's easy. You don't show individual costs in the quote. Just detail everything that the job involves and put a final figure, which is costs plus profit. Obviously no need to mention that profit is being made on the job. Same as buying a burger - you know you are getting a bun with some sesame seed, a beefburger, some salad and cheese and sauce, and that the bun will be toasted and beefburger flame-grilled, and the whole lot will cost you £3, which seems a good deal for everything in it, even though the individual parts and wages involved might only be £1!

Exactly. Unless something beyond your control happens. A mate I work with had a job for one of his clients doing 20% reductions on half a dozen beech trees and a couple of removals. Priced properly for the number of days it would take to pay everyone involved, and use of his own chipper etc etc, + about 25% on top for profit in the bank. All going well but the climber he booked for the job went chicken on the last tree. Climber was on a day rate and so was paid for the days he did, which should have seen the job completed. This was completely out of my mate's control and completely unforeseen. So mate ended up forking out money to pay someone else to come in and finish the job. Big chunk of profit gone, but a slightly larger contingency amount would have seen it all ok.

Obviously it won't hold true all the time, and we've got to judge things properly which will depend on numbers of people quoting, what sort of prices they put in and how desperate everyone is for a particular job. Some jobs are so simple though. A client wanted a couple of large neglected fruit trees tidying up. The job took me on my own about 3 hours. I could have charged him £45 as that would make me my £15/hour and the costs to me were virtually nothing as I did it all with a Silky. But I charged him £150 which he was very happy with. I mentioned a few weeks back that I don't do any climbing with chainsaws or anything (that gets done by someone suitably qualified), but I can communicate well with customers, understand what their requirements are and put things in place to get the job done properly and make sure everyone is happy. If I don't get a particular job I'm not really bothered, and someone else can have it. I'll just carry on doing something else.

Thank you Mr Lofthouse. Another reason I forgot to put down..... there has to be a contingency plan. Can't just price assuming the job will go without a hitch. Need to consider what will happen if something goes wrong and the job takes a lot longer. If someone prices a job at really low, like £250, assuming it will take one day, then it's wrong/awkward/bad practice to ask the customer for extra because he needs another half day on it. And as said earlier in the thread, if you just give the customer a day rate then it puts you under pressure as the customer will want more and more out of you in the day, and they start questioning why something has taken two days instead of one.

since pricing some jobs on my own, I've adopted a formula - it's my break-even amount (to cover my pay, whatever the climber charges, consumable etc) multiplied by 2, or sometimes 3 First customer who I priced for I went in really high after giving a really detailed breakdown in writing of everything involved. He liked this, and asked me back for more, which was less involved so I reflected this in a slightly lower price which still tripled what I put into it. Now he has booked for a big one at the end of the year, and I am doing a cheapy for him during May just clearing a telephone line. I could have gone in low to just break even to start with on the first really big one, but then no chance of raising the price. As it is, I'm happy, customer is happy, and the people who have done the work for me are happy.

Now that's a proper borrocks idea and has put me right off any possible future purchase of Husqvarna stuff.

So who insures your groundy, just in case you drop a branch on him?

Not sure what the 2 stays for a power line would be worth. If you ask too much they'll sort another way out. But some things are good for ransom. A bloke we work for near me made an absolute fortune. A few years back he got PP on some land to build 8 houses. He sold the land to a developer who did it all, but he also retained a small strip of land across the frontage. The developer then got PP for a few more houses adjoining the ones he'd already built, but the only way to put another access road in was by purchasing the small strip that the landowner had retained - he made a mint on it! Also, the developer tried to offer another customer of ours, who adjoins the development, £10k for half her back garden. We told her that the developer was taking the mick, she sought advice, and ended up with almost £300k!

I've just been looking through all the jobs in may are on the Job centre web site as the Mrs is trying to get back in employment now the kids are a bit older and she's had it with being a self-employed on £3.50/hour registered and insured and qualified early years practitioner childminder. It's all borrocks. Virtually all the jobs there are for sales and marketing, plus a heap for self-employed qualified interpretors on min wage. A lot of the sales jobs are commission only and based on grabbing people in the street or cold calling people. There are some more tasty jobs, like a toolmaker.... but you need 10 years experience. Apprentice chef job - £95/week. General labourers with experience and CSCS card - £6.08/hour. Experienced builders - £8/hour. Area agent - min wage - doing cold calling offering people tax rebates. Catalogue distributors - commission only. Goods inward supervisor - must have flex/bendi forklift licence and experience - £17k/year. It's all very well when people say there are loads of jobs out there. There are jobs out there, not loads, but some. But there also loads of people who aren't suited/qualified/experienced to do those jobs. And also, a huge number of those jobs are only suitable for people who live at home with mum and dad to support them. Imagine trying to rent a place for £200/week, buy food, pay bills, pay for transport and everything else, with the income from a commission only job delivering catalogues or whatever. Without state support it's just not possible. I've just looked through 249 jobs, and there's possible ONE that I might be able to blag my way into and might possible pay enough to support family. And for my Mrs, maybe a couple of min wage jobs, that is all honesty wouldn't be worth bothering with as it would mean we would need to spend out on someone to drop the youngun to school, pick him up and all that. 'tis crap.

Beautiful description.....just as the Mrs has passed me my coffee....

All true stuff. I have had the stopper on my lanyard catch in forks before and it does make me mad too. I'm going to change from a 5m to an 8m and ditch the knot I think.

I like waffles. Especially Belgian waffles. And I also like Belgian pollarded trees. Have a look at the ones here: Pollarded trees in Brussels | enclos*ure

Driven past them many times - brilliant to see, and as said, something never forgotten.

We are seriously thinking about doing windows while we are there mowing. The barriers to entry are smaller for us, because, as you say, we already have the ladders, and we have long reach poles too. Barriers to entry for window cleaner to do mowing must be higher, but this cheeky chappy used the customer's own mower! My work mate is so riled up about it that I have a feeling he might just go and tonk every window cleaner he sees! Mind you, looking at it rationally, I suppose if someone's a window cleaner, and their round is dropping off, and they have bills to pay and family, it's only natural to look at other ways of getting some income.