agg221

Assuming these are not grafted trees, about 4-5yrs old is when they are likely to start to flower. Alec

How large are the biggest bits? Alec

Hi David - I read the thread which was interesting but also confirmed that I know very little about mycology Bearing in mind this was over 25yrs ago, my recollection is as follows: On the Annie Elizabeth shown, the fruiting bodies were concentrated at the base of the trunk, on the tension side. The branch shown currently supported would have been around 2' lower at the time. The presence of dysfunctional roots is therefore a possibility. On the Newton Wonder the fruiting bodies were also adjacent to the trunk. This tree showed no sign of movement due to wind, but may have experienced a ground level change at some point - if so the soil would have been raised around a foot about 40yrs earlier when a Nissen hut was erected. There was some significant decay in the trunk at the then ground level, so there was material available. Vigour in both trees was poor. There was a lot of blossom but almost zero extension growth. That said, up until 1988 there was effectively no extension growth on any of the trees, no pruning having taken place for many years and the crowns having become a twiggy mass. However by the time they were being treated they would have had some pruning undertaken, probably over a couple of years. From what I recall the Newton Wonder was showing some extension growth but the Annie Elizabeth was not, specifically compared to the adjacent Annie Elizabeth (shown in the other pictures) which was making modest extension growth. After treatment, the trees made good extension growth. I can be fairly confident that this was not arising from the remains of adjacent dead/removed trees. The Newton Wonder had Comice pears on both sides, and a Worcester Pearmain nearby. The whole line was complete so no trees would have been removed since the Nissen Hut was erected. There would have been a tree at some point about 20ft to one side of the Annie Elizabeth but we have re-planted in that area and found no remains, so it is reasonable to presume that it had gone a long time previously. Also the fruiting bodies were only present right against the trunks of the affected trees and treatment was only applied adjacent to the affected trees, which eradicated the Armillaria, all indicating that the source had been treated. I don't think there is enough to go on to be definitive, but looking back my view is that, in an orchard with many trees on weak rooted dwarf stock, they would have been very vulnerable had Armillaria spread, unless it happened to be a purely saprophytic species. Even gallica is regarded as a weak pathogen which in this case may be strong enough to kill trees on dwarf stock, or sufficiently weaken the root system that they fail. As such, I would still be inclined on balance to eradicate it (were a suitable treatment still available) and risk local damage to the soil ecosystem, on the grounds that recolonisation with beneficial agents from the surrounding soil should be fairly rapid, whereas negative spread would be equally rapid and probably far more damaging. Alec

Afraid I don't have a magic solution - I'm aware of the pros and cons but in this case it was the combination of saving this tree and also not having it run rampant through the orchard. Also worth noting that 25yrs ago thinking was rather different, particularly in our case. I would have been around 16 and neither Dad or I had any experience to draw on. There was no internet so basically you read the fruit books to work out what problem you had, saw the dire warnings around honey fungus, walked into the local agricultural merchants (this is pre- PA1) and asked what they had that you could dose it with David - no idea which Armillaria it was - the ID books I had available at the time just said 'honey fungus, very bad!' As I recall, the Armillatox was quite expensive at the time and we did wonder if it was worth it, but it seems to have paid off Alec

There were two trees which had it, showing large volumes of fruiting bodies - this and a Newton Wonder which was removed when the lower end was landscaped. We treated both with Armillatox in the days before it was withdrawn for such purposes. A single dose was applied, in line with manufacturer's recommendations. There has been no recurrence of fruiting bodies in c.25yrs and tree vigour is good. I take this as a success. Alec

Not much work yet on the big ones this year - they always get left until last as pruning later seems to produce a less vigorous response (at least, that's what I tell myself when putting it off...) However, I have worked my way round most of them now, with the very vigorous Bramleys to go in a few weeks time. These two are a couple of Annie Elizabeths which are now mostly back in shape. They are very exposed and were windblown in 1987 whilst they were top heavy with a big sail area before being thinned but are now fairly open, reduced in height by around 6' and produce good extension growth and a reasonable crop of large, good quality fruit which keeps through until June. Pruning is therefore now more about removing upward growth, keeping a fresh supply of laterals by removing old ones and bending new ones down and removing the mass of thin, twiggy stuff which always develops along the tops of the branches. The first is shown before and after pruning. The third image shows the condition of the trunk. Care is needed to stop it collapsing, but it hasn't moved any further in the last few years since I took the lever arm back a few feet and it is balancing up fairly well. The next two images show the adjacent tree before and after pruning. This was winched up several feet and propped in about 1990. It also had Armillaria, which was successfully eradicated around the same time. The prop has mostly rotted away but the root system has recovered such that it is no longer needed. Some new branch structure can be seen developing low down on the trunk to fill in the gaps. The branches will need to be very large to achieve this but in around 15-20yrs it will be possible to take the top centre out and lower the canopy significantly on that side.

Another problem which arises is that trees become imbalanced. This can be because a main structural branch dies, or because the tree was neglected, became dense and was blown over and can no longer be stood back up. New branches can then be grown to fill in the gaps and, where the tree has blown over, the lower branches on the wrong side removed to balance it up. The first picture shows a half standard Allington Pippin which was so heavily overshadowed by a larger tree that one half died completely and the other side was drawn upwards. The tall side has now been brought back down the the correct height and new framework branches can be seen forming on the near side. The second picture shows a Beauty of Bath which developed a lean. The branches to the left have grown over the past 15-20yrs and the tree is now completely balanced. The third picture shows what is now a well balanced Rosemary Russet with good structure, however the fourth picture shows two scars - one low down and ageing, the other fresh. This tree fell over such that branch which was at the lower scar was horizontal, thus the branches now growing to the right originally grew to the left and branches to the left have been developed as a completely new half of the framework. There are pictures of this from a couple of years ago on the earlier thread, showing it before the last of these branches was removed.

The varieties are not at risk of disappearing - they are all in the National Fruit Collection at Brogdale and are available from speciality nurseries, however very few of them are now commercially grown. I once saw St Edmund's Pippin for sale in Sainsbury's and I have have bought Worcester Pearmain in a market. Beauty of Bath is a very early eater with not much flavour but interesting pink flesh; it is also one of the parents of Discovery, the other being Worcester Pearmain. Longer storage techniques and imports from New Zealand have pretty much wiped it out and Allington Pippin has gone completely. It was an early attempt at a Cox improvement but it is not bland or sweet enough for modern tastes and it can be difficult to get the size right as it is rather biennial and in off years the few fruit are huge whereas in on years they need thinning. It has a nice flavour though and keeps well. We are just eating the last of them. Lord Suffield is an early cooker but it is now pretty much impossible to sell anything other than Bramley, so they are just picked seriously under-ripe and people accept it. This is a shame, as a nice Lord Suffield is far better in my opinion. It also doesn't need much if any sugar with it. Alec

This Lord Suffield is also in urgent need of reduction - in this case partly due to its height (currently around 12') and partly because it is internally decayed and is now buckling at every bend. The spread of the upper canopy has been reduced from around 12' two years ago to under 6' and heavily thinned. The planned new framework can be seen forming - it was set back badly by canker last year due to the bad weather but if we have better weather this year it should expand another foot or so. It will probably be 3 or 4 years before the top can be taken right down.

One consequence of neglect is that, where trees are close together, as they become more overgrown and dense they are drawn up towards the light. This results in the trees becoming taller and the lower branches dying, leaving the same canopy volume but at a much higher level than necessary. As the trunk becomes hollow or canopy becomes more dense, this risks the tree either blowing over or snapping out. This is addressed by cutting back to let light in lower down and encourage growth of new main branches from the small epicormic growth below. Once these become large enough, the main framework can be dropped to the level of the new branches, effectively a form of accelerated retrenchment with drop crotch pruning, leaving a new head. These images show the progression in a series of half standards (4' clear stem). Firstly a Beauty of Bath which has been drawn up to about 15'. It is on Paradise and the tree habit is wide and spreading andso it should be possible to maintain the tree at around 8'. The main side branch has a large hole in it (image 2) so it is now time to accelerate reduction of height - two large sections were cut off this year. In parallel, new branches can be seen at around this height which are beginning to form a new branch scaffold. Cutting back progressively above these points will accelerate their growth. The third image shows an Allington Pippin which is well on with the process - this is a slightly more upright tree but 10' is easily achievable. It is now being thinned out to improve branch spacing - cutting the head off tends to promote vigorous growth which if thinned at the same time just makes it bolt. The trunk is completely hollow. Finally, a Beauty of Bath which has been brought into shape at 8'.

The pictures below, taken at the weekend, show some of the dwarf bush trees which are pretty much how I want them. They can be pruned from the ground, make reasonable extension growth each year and are light and open. Note that the original main structure is now pretty much hollow in all cases but this is not an issue so long as the trees are maintained. The first two are St Edmund's Pippin, the third is Worcester Pearmain. Alec

I look after a small orchard in Kent - between Dartford and Gravesend. I have mentioned it in a couple of other threads: http://arbtalk.co.uk/forum/general-chat/52999-having-go-pruning-fruit-trees-anyone-interested.html http://arbtalk.co.uk/forum/tree-health-care/2847-mulch-not-mulch.html The first of these also includes some earlier pictures. I thought the ongoing work warranted its own thread, both for this and other, similar orchard/fruit tree work. It is a mixed smallholding orchard planted in 1919, originally providing food for the family and fruit to send to market at Covent Garden. Although these were once very common, this is now something of a rare survivor. It is a mixture of apples, pears, cherries and plums, also a quince, with cobnuts along the boundary. The trees are mostly in bush form, many on semi-dwarf Paradise, St Julien and Quince A stock, the others on seedling crab and pear. My parents bought the place in 1988 (Mum still lives there) and I took on management of the orchard. It had been seriously neglected, probably for the past 20yrs, with several casualties still lying fallen from the 1987 storm. There was also another period of reduced input from around 1998 to 2009 for various reasons, following which I picked it up again in earnest. Although the fruit is still used, the orchard is well past its commercial life. The primary objective is therefore keeping the existing trees going, well past their normal life expectancy, together with replanting gaps, very much with the same philosophy of a mixed orchard for kitchen use. There is very little spraying - pretty much only the Morello cherries as otherwise brown rot destroys the crop and the young growth. Codlin moth and plum moth traps are used and occasionally a bit of herbicide around the trees, although the weeds are mainly controlled with woodchip mulch (whenever anyone drops some off!) As the thread develops I aim to document the ongoing work. Alec

No, there is also a 0.75" pitch x 0.122" gauge. Rob is correct that it is 0.080" gauge (sadly there is no 0.75" pitch x 0.080" gauge which is what goes on my Teles). Alec

I wouldn't glue it - mostly for the reasons Steve has given. Timber framed construction uses no glue and holds up indefinitely through design - what you are constructing is on a similar structural level. If just bolted then, if you do get a bit of a gap opening over the next couple of years, you can unbolt it, true up the edges and bolt it back together again. If you ever need to move it you can take the bits apart and load them easily. Basically, I don't think glue is necessary for this and it could be a definite disadvantage in some scenarios. Alec

To be honest, I struggle to comprehend what this must be like. I know how it felt when my saws got stolen and last summer we had some more things go from another shed (most annoyingly a full length silky pole saw which I haven't been able to replace) but there is something different about blatant and remorseless targeting day after day which I would struggle to cope with. I can quite see why with the combination of their approach with impunity and the lack of response there would be a serious risk of someone taking matters into their own hands. Alec

I agree entirely with this. The only thing to say on the flip side is that if you use thicker rod then it will be stiffer and may hold the boards down true. It will also take a higher torque without stripping the thread if you want to pull the boards in tight. That said, beech is short grained and hence more likely to take the shape you want it to, rather than to do its own thing (unlike, say, oak or ash). If you are going for M12 then I would definitely want a lip and spur bit but if bigger then an auger bit would work fine. A2 (otherwise known as 304) will be fine for this - better actually than A4 (316) as it is stronger. I do like the look of the worktop connectors though.... Whichever you go for, I would anticipate nipping it up fairly frequently in the first year. Little and often rather than letting gaps open up and trying to close them again. Alec p.s. I advise against doing what I did when I needed to drill in the tie rods between the joists which meant getting about 1.5m deep (a series of 75mm holes drilled in turn through each joist). The only way I could figure to do it was to take a 2m length of threaded bar, grind the top end into a drill bit shape and use it to drill the hole. It worked, but it was not fun.

I wouldn't drill in only part way and I wouldn't try to go from one side and make it line up with the other. A good eye and go for it with a long series lip and spur bit would be my approach. You can get bigger stainless threaded rod here: Stainless Steel Threaded Rod | Buy Online @ | Trade Fix Direct It's where mine comes from (had to fix the windposts down to the foundations with 450mm lengths of M20 in each corner of a plate - that was some serious drilling!) Alec

I would be inclined to use threaded rod. Do you know anyone with floor standing drill press? The problem I find with deep drilling using a long auger bit is that the smaller ones tend to wander. I find the 18mm and 20mm bits are far better than the 12mm. Flat bits are not generally long enough, so I would buy a long series spur and lip bit - these need clearing more frequently (vacuum cleaner and a bit of thin tube to poke down the hole) but they do drill true. Alec

How wide are the boards? Alec

In December 2012 I had two saws stolen - I've wondered since what happened to them. They haven't shown up on Ebay, Preloved or Gumtree since - I have checked reliably and I have photos of both which show the distinctive features of the paintwork, so I would know. The thing is, they were an 076 and an 090, so not exactly common, easy to use or likely to end up in the hands of a landscaper or forester (and not that much use to a tree surgeon). They are so specialist that it is hard to work out where they would have gone. It was an opportunist theft, one of a spate of shed break-ins in the area, so they obviously had an outlet, but short of taking it to a farm auction in a different part of the country it's hard to see what would become of them for them not to have surfaced again. Alec p.s. Dean - does that make five in two weeks

On the subject of trees at risk of being a target for dogs, I have a thought. I wonder what would happen if you stuck a bucket of fine charcoal (biochar) down at the base on the relevant side. This is based on the fact that charcoal absorbs a lot, in fact one way of activating it for biological use is to add urine. It would need a very long term trial but could be interesting to see if it has benefits. I can't think of a down side of applying it other than hassle and cost, but the cost could be pretty minimal given the quantities required. Alec

Funnily enough I ordered a copy of this myself a couple of weeks back. Still waiting for it to arrive (from the US) - we'll have to compare notes On the technical side, another good one is [ame=http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Elms-Breeding-Conservation-Management/dp/0792377249]The Elms: Breeding, Conservation, and Disease Management: Amazon.co.uk: Christopher P. Dunn, C. P. Dunn: 9780792377245: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51dk2suMYqL.@@AMEPARAM@@51dk2suMYqL[/ame] If you keep an eye on it this sometimes turns up remaindered at a very reasonable price. For info, the European elm conference will be in Kent this year on the 9th or 10th of June. I don't have any further details at present. Alec

Both will probably be worn so you are likely to end up needing a new bar, however yes you can close up the bar rails to get a bit more life out of it. I have a special roller tool thingy for this, but before I had one I used to use a hammer to close them and a large flat bladed screwdriver to tweak open the bits where it was a bit too tight afterwards. Alec

I used to meticulously paint the ends of everything, usually using paint because it's what I had to hand and it shows where you have been, making sure you haven't missed anything. The aim in coating is to block the pores so the wood doesn't dry faster from the end which is what causes it to crack, so pretty much anything will do. It is also easier to paint the ends of the butt before milling if you have the opportunity for the paint to dry before milling. That said, I haven't bothered for years now. I ended up cutting the ends off anyway and it didn't seem to make much difference. There are two exceptions - I paint the ends of butts which may need to wait a bit before milling, particularly if felled in warm weather, so if oak has to come down in July I would rather wait until mid-September to mill it and I would paint it in the meantime to stop centre cracks developing. The other exception is where I have a piece which is right on the limit for length and I will need every inch - for example the plum I am gradually collecting up for my bedroom furniture all gets painted as it is not available in long lengths and I know I will need every last bit. Alec

Unless you are growing full sized standards on a crab rootstock you won't really want to grass the trees right in anyway. Assuming you are growing something on MM106 or bigger you can keep an area around 6' diameter weed free around the base and that will work fine. On this basis, you are going to need to kill the bracken properly in these locations anyway which realistically means a herbicide, although you can do it with a hoe if you are a masochist or the number of trees is very small. Alec