Big J

I use Palletways in Livingston. They actually sub it out to Dalkeith Transport, but they are always much cheaper. Only time I ever pay three figures for a pallet (including VAT) is for two spaces.

I'd recommend the Woodmizer blades over Ripper37. I've got a fairly even split between the two on the Logmaster and the Woodmizer blades tend to perform just slightly better and they are cheaper. I'm on Silvertip blades as it's the only one that will fit the mill.

Cooperative mill ownership would be difficult. Even the toughest mills are very easy to break. If you have a limited need for sawmilling, you are better to contract it out.

I can't see there being an issue getting timber dry in a 2x2x2 cube. My store at home is 5x2x2 and with the decent overhang it has, timber dries very rapidly. I don't stack it though - i find it dries quicker when thrown in.

8 cube stacked is only 2x2x2m. The size of a small garden shed. It's endlessly amusing that people will spend thousands on a stove installation and then cheap out on wood storage.

Wise words. And I say this as some one who has very seriously looked at RHI kilns. It is morally and environmentally corrupt, but it is very financially lucrative. There is never, ever a need to kiln dry firewood, but the government has created a situation where it makes financial sense to burn 1/4 of your firewood to dry the other 3/4. Is it perhaps counterproductive? Does the extra demand push up the price of cord meaning cost and efficiency savings of kilning are cancelled out. By the way, just because I think that the RHI scheme is daft, doesn't mean I still wouldn't consider it myself!

Very good video. Extremely interesting, and whilst I could understand the narrator fine, the Austrian accent of Herr Wittman is challenging! Their B quality firewood (which will be equivalent to our best stuff) is about £42 a cubic metre plus delivery. If you were to order 6 bags (8.4 cube) within 50km, it works out at £47 a cube. I will happily concede that they have a far better supply of hardwood in Austria, but the raw material cost (assuming it's similar to Germany) is higher.

Lack of production capacity is not an excuse for charging more though. For instance, I know that amongst the sawmills at my level in Scotland, that I am the cheapest on softwood. By some considerable margin - I charge near enough the same as going to one of the big, softwood only mills. I could charge £420 for a cubic metre of larch like some of my competitors, because in some respects I can justify it. I am a small outfit, I have high costs (rented premises, leased vehicles, some financed machinery) but these are my issues. I find I make more money charging less per unit (£245 for through sawn larch/other softwood and £300 for dimensioned) and directly competing with the big boys than if I decided that I was a niche supplier and charged more. It's still easy enough to turn over £800-1000 a day on the cheapest softwoods with me and one labourer. I am ruthlessly efficient at my yard though, and you will never find a tidier or more organised small sawyard. Through efficiency comes productivity and productivity is the basis of profit. That's the half German coming out in me though!

It's two stacked cube, 3.2 loose.

I have a Coventry Climax 4wd forklift with new bucket, power hitch and log grab. Cost £3500 plus VAT all in. Will go anywhere. Processors with stand alone power sources will be more economical to run. Even a three phase processor with generator will use less fuel, as well as make for a more pleasant work environment. Fair point on worst case scenario on cord costs. I think that is sensible. Barnsley Bob: Firewood is not £100 a cube on the continent: https://www.brennstoffe-vulcano.de/brennholz/23/eichenholz-30-33-cm-3-2-schuettraummeter-2-raummeter-auf-palette?c=6 A supplier not far from my uncle, £38 a cube on oak. It's a broader point that I'm trying to make really. There are issues in the UK with supply for the firewood market, there are issues with the customers and there are issues with the demand. Everything is too much based on boom or bust. We overcharge when there is demand which means no one buys firewood when demand drops. With some form of accountable pricing structure, a bit of regulation and increases in overall efficiency, I think that firewood retailers could make more money whilst reducing the cost to the end user. The Tesco model, if you will!

Small business 100% rates relief

As I said before, the efficiency in firewood comes from selling it green. Cordwood - £52 a tonne delivered in. That's allowing a tenner a tonne for haulage. Let's assume it's a hardwood mix, with some heavy species and some not so heavy. So perhaps 2.2 cubic metres to the tonne. Raw material cost is £23.64 per cube. Let's also assume there is a decent processor involved. Hardwood is slower than softwood though (which I am reliably informed takes around 7 minutes per cube on average) so lets assume 20 minutes. Assuming you've got two guys on £8 an hour operating and supplying the processor, you've got a labour cost of £5.28. Assuming your processor is diesel and it's doing 25 cube a day, it (and the forklift) might use about £1.50 in diesel per cube. So you've got a produced cost (in yard, not delivered) of £30.42 per cube. Yard costs - my yard (in it's original, and smallest incarnation before I expanded) was about a third of an acre (with a couple of small barns) and was large enough to accommodate 3-400 tonnes (800 cube) of firewood a year. That part of my yard costs me £330 a month, plus VAT. So £3960 a year, which is £4.95 a cube. Delivery vehicle costs - Assume you buy a new 12ft Ifor tipper and a used £10k landy. Total cost £15k, value after 3 years probably £10k. £5k depreciation, plus probably £5k repairs is £4.16 a cube. Machine costs - processor £15k, forklift £3.5k, chainsaws and other tools £2k. Again, assume a 3 year use and that it can be sold at the end for about £15k total. £5k depreciation and £5k repairs/maintenance is again £4.16 a cube. So that's a fully costed in yard product at £43.69. The only other cost is the diesel to deliver it and the time of the person running the delivery. Given that a cube can be produced in 20 minutes (and is costed from the point of view of hired in labour), I struggle to figure out how just over forty quid becomes £120.

There is nothing wrong with striving for efficiency and wanting not to overcharge your customers. It's not just the fault of the producers, but also the customers for being ill educated. Most European users of firewood ensure a winter's worth of firewood is sat outside the house before winter starts. The most efficient way to produce and deliver firewood is to sell it green, as you are not sat on the stock (which is cash tied up, with the associated costs) and it reduces handling and storage (also large costs). 3-400 tonne puts you in the difficult middle ground of being small enough to be competing with the transit tipper axe wielding warriors and large enough to have significant costs. Firewood is just fuel. It's timber we burn. It's not worth £120 a cube. It doesn't cost anywhere near that to produce. If you have to charge £120 to make a profit then you're either overpaying for your raw materials, or there is an awful inefficiency somewhere down the line. It's nothing personal to you, Lognstuff, it's a general frustration with the fact that everything is fiercely expensive in the UK, with firewood being no exception.

I strongly disagree. £120 for 250-300 kg (which is what a cubic metre is) of dry timber is ridiculous. It's more expensive (per solid cubic metre) than pressure treated sawn softwood. It's about what I charge for larch posts, rails and cladding. The firewood is the waste element when cutting that. That's the problem with firewood in this country. It's a niche product that people only use when they see frost outside. Until it's widely accepted as a standard form of heating, it will always be boom or bust for firewood merchants. Better to make a small profit and sell lots (and consistently) than overcharge a few customers and go under when we have a mild winter. It's endemic in the UK. Everything is overpriced, there is no correlation between production cost and final product cost. It's profiteering and it is (in my opinion) one of the reasons we swing between boom and bust. Raw material A cost + labour cost + reasonable profit = final price.

Firewood should be sold by volume and nothing else. Price per cubic metre. Whether it's a ton bag, bulk bag, builders bag, trailer load or tipper load - these are just methods of delivery and irrelevant to price. Secondly, once we've educated the customers to the above, we need to get them to buy the blasted firewood unseasoned. Any right thinking person looks after their own firewood needs and ensures that it's dry themselves. That way, there is no quibble regarding moisture content. Finally, once the first two steps have been completed, we can drop prices. If prices are more affordable and more consistent, it becomes a fuel source, rather than a luxury item. £120 for a cube of firewood is nuts. You'd get that through a processor in 15 minutes for a maximum of a £30 raw material and labour cost. Where does the extra £90 come from?

We're on the same page here Tom. The machine is rated to 8 cube an hour, so realistically a lorry load a day shouldn't be any trouble. £33 a cube is £10 a cubic metre after fuel and labour costs, so £600/day profit. Shifting that volume of softwood (given that you could theoretically produce 300 cube a week) would be the issue. I've always thought that firewood is profitable at the extreme ends of the spectrum. A man with a transit tipper and a splitter will make money because he has no overheads. A business with a fast processor, log deck, good log handling and abundant labour will make money due to high efficiency. Everyone in between will struggle.

I've done that before. I used to do about 150 cube a year with the offcuts from the mill. Couldn't stand the delivery and handling side of things (I don't have the machinery/delivery method to eliminate handling). These days I just sell all my offcuts for biomass. B_S - that is the one. Wood wasp - agree on the hunching over. Something that could be modified. The mobile version of that processor with a diesel engine isn't much more than the static. I also like the fact it weighs 2 tonnes. The high weight inspires confidence in build quality.

No apology required Ben - I'd rather folk were realistic, even if it was negative. I think I'm just trying to justify new toys! B_S - Trak-met (company from whom I'm purchasing my mill) do a very solid looking processor with a rapid cycle time, high production rate and 25t splitter.

Little effect here. Generally agree with major points though.

Sawmilling isn't taking off bigstyle as such. I'm still a one man band with about 40hrs a week of contract/casual labour, but business is pretty good. I'm just drawn to firewood processors - also the numbers element (how many bags can we do per hour, can we beat that etc) appeals to the autistic streak in me! Nothing is every to comparable or quantifiable in sawmilling.

Good price on the douglas and nice mill too. I take my time on dimensioned stock usually. For that kind of really tiny stuff on smaller timber I'm usually 4 cubic metres in a day. Can't see the point of rushing at £300 a cube. Have a new mill coming in September and I'd hope to get up to 8-10 cube per day, but not really that bothered!

Stacking means handling though. Loose means you never have to touch the firewood. Briquette seller: payback would be complete after about 1340 cubic metres/650 tonnes. That's assuming I do none of the labour myself and just hire folk in.

Needs to be minimum £3 for the rail and £5 for the post. And that would be roughly cut from lowish grade larch, not 24ft douglas. Douglas of that quality needs to be minimum £350/cubic metre off the saw for dimensioned timber.

I got a quote for sawn timber to Gloucestershire the other day for £700 a load, which I thought was excellent.

Near Edinburgh sadly! I would think that I'd be able to get 48 bags to an artic, or thereabouts. Just trying to gauge demand. I hate dealing with the public, and my sawmilling business is now angled towards larger sales, less frequently. I'd do the same on firewood....