Big J

As I said before, the efficiency in firewood comes from selling it green. Cordwood - £52 a tonne delivered in. That's allowing a tenner a tonne for haulage. Let's assume it's a hardwood mix, with some heavy species and some not so heavy. So perhaps 2.2 cubic metres to the tonne. Raw material cost is £23.64 per cube. Let's also assume there is a decent processor involved. Hardwood is slower than softwood though (which I am reliably informed takes around 7 minutes per cube on average) so lets assume 20 minutes. Assuming you've got two guys on £8 an hour operating and supplying the processor, you've got a labour cost of £5.28. Assuming your processor is diesel and it's doing 25 cube a day, it (and the forklift) might use about £1.50 in diesel per cube. So you've got a produced cost (in yard, not delivered) of £30.42 per cube. Yard costs - my yard (in it's original, and smallest incarnation before I expanded) was about a third of an acre (with a couple of small barns) and was large enough to accommodate 3-400 tonnes (800 cube) of firewood a year. That part of my yard costs me £330 a month, plus VAT. So £3960 a year, which is £4.95 a cube. Delivery vehicle costs - Assume you buy a new 12ft Ifor tipper and a used £10k landy. Total cost £15k, value after 3 years probably £10k. £5k depreciation, plus probably £5k repairs is £4.16 a cube. Machine costs - processor £15k, forklift £3.5k, chainsaws and other tools £2k. Again, assume a 3 year use and that it can be sold at the end for about £15k total. £5k depreciation and £5k repairs/maintenance is again £4.16 a cube. So that's a fully costed in yard product at £43.69. The only other cost is the diesel to deliver it and the time of the person running the delivery. Given that a cube can be produced in 20 minutes (and is costed from the point of view of hired in labour), I struggle to figure out how just over forty quid becomes £120.

There is nothing wrong with striving for efficiency and wanting not to overcharge your customers. It's not just the fault of the producers, but also the customers for being ill educated. Most European users of firewood ensure a winter's worth of firewood is sat outside the house before winter starts. The most efficient way to produce and deliver firewood is to sell it green, as you are not sat on the stock (which is cash tied up, with the associated costs) and it reduces handling and storage (also large costs). 3-400 tonne puts you in the difficult middle ground of being small enough to be competing with the transit tipper axe wielding warriors and large enough to have significant costs. Firewood is just fuel. It's timber we burn. It's not worth £120 a cube. It doesn't cost anywhere near that to produce. If you have to charge £120 to make a profit then you're either overpaying for your raw materials, or there is an awful inefficiency somewhere down the line. It's nothing personal to you, Lognstuff, it's a general frustration with the fact that everything is fiercely expensive in the UK, with firewood being no exception.

I strongly disagree. £120 for 250-300 kg (which is what a cubic metre is) of dry timber is ridiculous. It's more expensive (per solid cubic metre) than pressure treated sawn softwood. It's about what I charge for larch posts, rails and cladding. The firewood is the waste element when cutting that. That's the problem with firewood in this country. It's a niche product that people only use when they see frost outside. Until it's widely accepted as a standard form of heating, it will always be boom or bust for firewood merchants. Better to make a small profit and sell lots (and consistently) than overcharge a few customers and go under when we have a mild winter. It's endemic in the UK. Everything is overpriced, there is no correlation between production cost and final product cost. It's profiteering and it is (in my opinion) one of the reasons we swing between boom and bust. Raw material A cost + labour cost + reasonable profit = final price.

Firewood should be sold by volume and nothing else. Price per cubic metre. Whether it's a ton bag, bulk bag, builders bag, trailer load or tipper load - these are just methods of delivery and irrelevant to price. Secondly, once we've educated the customers to the above, we need to get them to buy the blasted firewood unseasoned. Any right thinking person looks after their own firewood needs and ensures that it's dry themselves. That way, there is no quibble regarding moisture content. Finally, once the first two steps have been completed, we can drop prices. If prices are more affordable and more consistent, it becomes a fuel source, rather than a luxury item. £120 for a cube of firewood is nuts. You'd get that through a processor in 15 minutes for a maximum of a £30 raw material and labour cost. Where does the extra £90 come from?

We're on the same page here Tom. The machine is rated to 8 cube an hour, so realistically a lorry load a day shouldn't be any trouble. £33 a cube is £10 a cubic metre after fuel and labour costs, so £600/day profit. Shifting that volume of softwood (given that you could theoretically produce 300 cube a week) would be the issue. I've always thought that firewood is profitable at the extreme ends of the spectrum. A man with a transit tipper and a splitter will make money because he has no overheads. A business with a fast processor, log deck, good log handling and abundant labour will make money due to high efficiency. Everyone in between will struggle.

I've done that before. I used to do about 150 cube a year with the offcuts from the mill. Couldn't stand the delivery and handling side of things (I don't have the machinery/delivery method to eliminate handling). These days I just sell all my offcuts for biomass. B_S - that is the one. Wood wasp - agree on the hunching over. Something that could be modified. The mobile version of that processor with a diesel engine isn't much more than the static. I also like the fact it weighs 2 tonnes. The high weight inspires confidence in build quality.

No apology required Ben - I'd rather folk were realistic, even if it was negative. I think I'm just trying to justify new toys! B_S - Trak-met (company from whom I'm purchasing my mill) do a very solid looking processor with a rapid cycle time, high production rate and 25t splitter.

Little effect here. Generally agree with major points though.

Sawmilling isn't taking off bigstyle as such. I'm still a one man band with about 40hrs a week of contract/casual labour, but business is pretty good. I'm just drawn to firewood processors - also the numbers element (how many bags can we do per hour, can we beat that etc) appeals to the autistic streak in me! Nothing is every to comparable or quantifiable in sawmilling.

Good price on the douglas and nice mill too. I take my time on dimensioned stock usually. For that kind of really tiny stuff on smaller timber I'm usually 4 cubic metres in a day. Can't see the point of rushing at £300 a cube. Have a new mill coming in September and I'd hope to get up to 8-10 cube per day, but not really that bothered!

Stacking means handling though. Loose means you never have to touch the firewood. Briquette seller: payback would be complete after about 1340 cubic metres/650 tonnes. That's assuming I do none of the labour myself and just hire folk in.

Needs to be minimum £3 for the rail and £5 for the post. And that would be roughly cut from lowish grade larch, not 24ft douglas. Douglas of that quality needs to be minimum £350/cubic metre off the saw for dimensioned timber.

I got a quote for sawn timber to Gloucestershire the other day for £700 a load, which I thought was excellent.

Near Edinburgh sadly! I would think that I'd be able to get 48 bags to an artic, or thereabouts. Just trying to gauge demand. I hate dealing with the public, and my sawmilling business is now angled towards larger sales, less frequently. I'd do the same on firewood....

Hi all, Another (hopefully not, but probably) daft business idea to run past you fellers (pun intended). Looking at things to fill time and make money, much like everyone, and don't object too much to the idea of wholesale softwood firewood. We've got all the kit required to do a firewood properly but for the processor. I've done the sums for production costs, and the question is, would there by much demand for artic loads of 1m cubed ventilated bags of unseasoned softwood at £33 a bag loaded to a lorry? Not really interested in doing hardwood. Opinions, positive or negative would be much appreciated!

I am glad! It makes you cry the stems that get ringed up/hacked up because of people sadly not being clued up. I'm not saying it's anyone's fault, only that I'd urge any cutter to post a couple of photos of a stem that they think is possibly unusual. You might be surprised of it's value. Anyway, I'm OK for elm at the moment. Looking at three loads next Monday in Morayshire

Hate to think of the lovely stem they were butchered off of.

Trak-met TTS 800 standard, with lots of modifications. Static, 30kw main drive, 10.5 x 1.35m log capacity.

Hoping you rabble might be able to help me on a species identification. Had five lengths of an oversized softwood come to the yard a couple of months ago from near Elgin. It was a windblown tree, looked a bit like a spruce from the others around it (the blown tree had already been snedded and cut to length). I've had about 10 different timber professionals look at the tree and some also the sawn timber, and we none of us really know what it is. There is little smell from it, no resin, minimal blue stain (and it's been down for a while). It's very heavy for it's volume and very hard. Also seems to have a stunning figure. Anyway, it's all milled now, 1.5, 2 and 2.5", but we still have no idea what it is. My best guess is European Spruce. It's come from an estate, so it could be something obscure. Jonathan

Carl Butler, Nelson Butler timber. They are fairly local, near Horncastle and I am certain will take it (assuming it's not hollow). £1500 to £2000 in that first length, quality dependent, though a very large HIAB would be required to move it as it will weigh 11 tonnes.

The sawmill is now sold! Many thanks for those who got in contact.

I was joking (to a degree!). Nice looking set up, but a little oddly proportioned. Sort of like mounting a Howitzer to a rowing boat.

Surely with a crane of that size on it, anything you'd be able to carry legally an be under 3500kg would be liftable by hand?!

Not wych elm I don't think. Sapwood band much too wide, heart too dark. Nice work though

Update - the mill will be fitted with a brand new replacement engine in the next week or two. The original has always been a bit of a Friday afternoon special, right from the start, so no such issues for the new owner of the mill. I would imagine it would have around 100-125hrs on it by the time it is sold.