Rupe

That blue sky has got to be one of the best colours on earth!!

Distels got to be the easiest pulley based hitch for lanyards? Easy to tie etc.

Police would be involved instantly if there was a fatality and soon enough if the injuries were life threatening or likely to result in permanent dissability.

Cool. I sound like a right old winger, but I'm only practicing for old(er) age. It amazes me that insurance companies have decided to take money from self employed climbers, but I guess if someone offers you money just so they can pretend to the tax man that they are a sub contractor then you would take it!

In person!!?? Did anyone want anything to do with him??

Can I make an example, based on sawdust situation but not directly aimed at anyone really........ If you look at a job, and quote for it and get it then that is your job. You work out a method for that job and decide to get in climber A to do the climbing aspect, while you and your other groundie do the groundwork, any lowering, chipping etc. By law you are resonsible for the health and safetey of that site. (management of health and safety at work act etc) so you should idealy draw up a risk assessment etc. By law you don't have to have PL insurance but for arguments sake you have it. By law you DO have to have employers and for this example you have that too. Climber A turns up on the day and gets on with it. He does not take over the management of health and safety on that site as its not his job and cannot be expected to if he has not ever seen the job before. During the day the greenhouse gets wrecked. YOU and your team (groundie and climber A) have wrecked the greenhouse durign YOUR work. Your insurance pays!!! If the climber was drunk YOU were responsible for lettign him climb. If the climber couldn't be arsed to lower something YOU are resonsible for that. You cannot pass the buck on responsiblity on your jobs!!! Getting a subcontractor in is a differnent thing and we are not talking about that. Does that make any sense?

I'm not trying to be argumantal in any way. I hope I don't come over as such. I would like to help everyone resolve this issue. I have some gripes. Mostly with insurance companies, its best not to listen to them! They will tell you all sorts of things and what they say has been carefully worked out word for word, they are not having a conversation with you (us). Thats great that your insurance includes covering sub contractors in the event of them not having any. Remember this is sub contractors your insurance company are talkign about, not climbers/groundies like what we are talking about. In that case, if you used a subcontractor who said he had insurance (and showed you a certificate) and then turned out not to, you could sue him seperately for damage to your business name etc but this would be a civil case, and you'd struggle to get anything! But at least the origianl cliam would be paid. Anyway thats by the by as we are talking abotu employeers here. What we all call subbies who are not subcontractors in the real sense.

Sure if they are sub contractors. But they are not if they are working with you.

Absolutly agree with you! Companies/sole traders carrying out tree work contracts should have insurance. Its not law but of course they should have it. Self employed climbers/groundies workign for those companies/soletrader on those work contractors should be included in the same insurance policy, and if not included then the policy needs to be changed to include them. They do not need their own unless there is an additional work contract (otherwise known as a sub contract) in which case they are bonafide sub contractors, and will need there own groundies etc. and an insurance policy to cover employees and public liability.

Ah, no sack! Its amazing what money and a camera crew will make you behave like! Its embarrassing even to most americans!! But if you think of it as an entertainment then most people would think it no different to axemen or ice road truckers etc.

Another misunderstanding! The tax man says a bonafide subcontractor (BSC) has there own insurance. Now thats only true if the BSC wants to be insured. Whether or not he's a BSC is not determined by his insurance, and therefore havign insurance does not make you a BSC. Having climber work for you for the day with there own insurance does not make then a bona fide subcontractor. They are working for you, no amount of insurance can change that. And if they screw up then you screwed up and your insurance will have to cover it.

Correct! It doesn't mean you HAVE to have it, or any genuine subcontractor has to have it.

In response to sawdust Yes, a bona fide subcontractor DOES need insurance unless they want to be an uninsured bonafide subcontractor. Its not a legal requirement but it is the right thing to do. A self employed climber and your groundie are not bonafide subcontractors!!!! When they say any subcontractor must have insurance they mean subcontractors!! Not people you are gettign in for the day, they are covered as if they were employees, which is why (amongst other reasons) you are being encouraged to take your man on as an employee! Insurance companies will give you a quote but its an unusable policy as you cannot put the responsibility of your jobs onto your groundie!!

Holly was done free of charge of course! I've didn't get a chance to do any chipping! Shame!! But it seemed to go through all right! Very dusty though, I'll have to clean the truck again this year!

What your saying is the same as what I was trying to say. You right there is no legal requirement for anyone to have public liability. I wasn't suggesting there is. If the company you are working for doesn't have it then theres no need for you to have it either as you won't be taking responsibility for the contracts as a whole. (by contract I mean the particular job you are on at any given time) The climbing is a minor part of the job, and if something goes wrong then the company carrying out the work is responsible. If they are not insured then that does not mean that the responsiblity then falls back on the climber.

Yep. Your not really a subby but that is the term often used, so you don't need seperate insurance. If for some reason you are not covered by there employers liability then they need to change the policy so that you are covered. There isn't a policy you can take it instead of this other than personal accident cover which woudl be upto you. MOst people fret about Public liabilty cover the most. And again you are covered by the company you are working for. They are doing the job and must have insurance. But if they don't have this insurance (many companies don't) then nothing you can take out will cover their jobs, even if you are the climber. You are not taking on the responsibilty of the contract as a whole, and don't need insurance.

Nothing and nothing. Are you a tree surgery company acting as a bonafide sub contractor to other companies, and therefore carrying out all the management of health and safety on site and providing employees etc?

I'm trying to see what holly you mean? Oh, in the first pic heading for the chipper? Um, we just found that lying on the floor in our lowering area! Thought we would clear it up!!

Its ok to use anything within its own limitations. Karabiners are fine, if they bend the rope too much than that is a limitation, work within that and alls good!

And some other pics. Difficult to get many photos when all hands are busy, so most were taken while chogging down as there was less other work to do. Got some video but not great. Will look at it at the weekend maybe. Not sure I can make it anything very informative.

Here you can see the secondary rigging point we used to keep the loads away from trunk. It worked quite well. All branches could be swung round to that one side and dropped in a little gap between the yews.

Dismantled this today. The corsican is a bit obscured by the Scots pine in the first photo, but you can see it poking out the top and left hand side. It had a big side branch sticking out to the left, easier to see it in the second photo. Underneath there are several nice Yew trees to be retained if possible. We could drop the ends of the side branch off directly onto the drive, then we lifted the larger wood with the grcs and lowered it in a gap behind the larger yew, so as not to damage it. (the yew).

Fair point, well put! I wasn't offended but it was an unecessary comparsison to what was merely a jovial figure of speech, suggesting that I probably can't make this particular event. But I didn't really need to add my thoughts to this thread, so I apologise too.

No need to take me literally, of course there are plenty of worse things in life. No need to try and shock with examples of worse things. You get the point! Seeing as its just up the road from me it is something that I could see/do. Watching unspeakable acts in Afganistan is a less likely scenario don't you think!? I'm sure it will be great fun, I can't wait to be filled in on the details.

Yes and I agree with what your saying too. I guess id the right person comes along you have to pay them enough to keep them. And a 30 year old is likely to want more than a 20 yr old. SO if you want the 30 yr old then you have to pay for it. Of course if the 20yr old is simply a better employee, for whatever reason, then you should pay them more. The younger you are though the more time you have to get experience and therefore extra money, and so a little less pay now and a good job where you cna learn will pay you well in the long term. It was a general comment I made, of course all circumstances are different. Generally older folk seem to be more reliable but of course there are plenty of exceptions form young and old. There is the genuine point though that 30 yr olds are cheaper to insure for driving, and that is a good thing. However I know some 20 yr olds brought up on a farm drivign tractors and trailers who I would much prefer to have driving my vehicles than someone older with no experience.