Tom D

Any kind of timber shifter is a good investment.

Thats my point about a weekly target, Dave does a big dismantle on Monday for £900, say his target is 2250 PW, he does a £500 job on tues and another on wed, he can then afford to work for only £350 on thurs and he has hit his target. So he can still work cheap if he needs to so long as he gets some jobs that suit his mog. Mondays job that would have taken others 2 days he has done in 1 allowing him to work thursday "at a loss". He could go and work friday for £150 if he likes, its all profit as he has made his target for the week. or he could stay at home and put his feet up. I find working this way liberating, and it keeps you on course to make a decent profit at the end of the year.

I think you end up getting work that suits your kit / skills rather than the other way round. Dave will maybe loose out on some jobs where his kit gives no advantage but win a higher proportion of those where it does. Maybe thats the best tip of all: give yourself an edge, that will allow you to do some jobs cheaper than most others. It doesn't have to be kit either, it could be having 2 climbers as your 2 man team. Get a job with 6 or 7 trees to climb and you could still do it in a day where as a one climber setup would struggle. It could be having all the tickets under the sun and going for jobs where the clients insist on loads of H&S. I know that I found when I bought the alpine tractor a few years ago I suddenly started getting jobs where there was a lot of timber, or winching jobs. Today we felled 3 50' sycs and an 50' ash, we took the big tractor and the wee one and the van and chipper, the van and the trailer on the valtra were brim full by 3.00 so that was our day. A few years ago that job would have taken us 4 days minimum..... But now I find we don't win many hedge jobs anymore as we are too dear. Its horses for courses. Even having a tracked barrow would give you a wee edge over someone who hasn't.

Its easy to confuse customer loyalty with convenience, They know you, you didn't break anything last time, and they still have your number somewhere..... There aren't many who I would class as truly loyal. I do loads of work for people who have obviously had work recently done by others, they just look on line or in yp and get whoever answers his phone first.

That was my point, You just made it better Dave:001_smile:

I have never been paid up front, I do think the scots being tight is bollocks though.. My experience has been that I used to charge 350 for a 2 man team and was usually busy, i then started charging 550 for a 2 man team and was even more busy, Now I have 3 men but don't really have a day rate anymore. I am averaging 3-4k a week constantly now but I have bought bigger kit so can now do bigger jobs much faster, I am using subbys quite a lot too at the mo so its hard to even get to grips with my weekly target right now. Once things calm down again though I will go back to aiming for 3-4k a week again.

I'm not urging anyone to expand, just charge a decent rate for the team that they have got. The reason people don't go out and start 10 squads is they you then get 10 squads worth of hassle. I know a few members on here who have run multiple teams and gone back to just one owner operated team.

Nice post Stevie, I have been thinking about this today, whilst you obviously want to run your business in a way that works for you, you have to step back once in a while and look at wether it really is working! I don't just mean making money, are you happy, stimulated, do you get up each day looking forward to the work ahead of you? However my comments on this thread are based on a fairly simple principle: however thrifty and well organised you are you can only get your overheads down so far, the cost of the kit we all buy and the consumables we all use are pretty standard across the whole country. You may only work local, and save money in all sorts of ways, but fuel is near enough £1.40 a litre wherever you are. I chose £80k as a turnover because I think after deducting an average amount of overheads that is a figure that ought to give you a reasonable profit / wage. You may do well turning 60k or you may need 90, but chances are the higher your turnover the more you will make. Consider this: 2 arb teams both working in the same radius using a transit and 6" chipper, both pay the same wages and have similar overheads. Team A charges 350 a day for 200 days and turns £70k, team b charges 400 a day for 200 days and turns £80k. Given that their costs are the same team B has made a whole £10k more by just charging an extra £50 each day. In reality we will all have different overheads, (mine are £1800ish a week BTW) however adding a small amount to your turnover without increasing your overheads too much is the way to make money. So those who say turnover is vanity, think again, if someone else with similar kit and staff numbers like yours turns more, he probably makes more too. One final tip. Don't work on a day rate. I hear you saying " I never do, I always price each job individually" thats fine but I used to find that I would look at a job and say " thats about a day" and stick what was effectively a day rate on it. Or a half day, or two days, I reckon we all tend to do this ( look at your invoices over the years, are they all different amounts? or lots of multiples of the same figure... your day rate:sneaky2:...) and there's nothing wrong with pricing that way, but what happens when you get one thats a bit more than a day but not 2 or 3/4 of a day? The best way to work is to have a rigid weekly target that you aim to hit every week, forget about having a day rate, and price each job as it looks, considering your competitors and what you think they will want for the job. This way you may find a job where for example you know it suits your setup perfectly and the the competition may struggle a little, think what they will charge and aim to beat that, it doesn't matter if you can do it in 2 hours because of your crane / climbing groundy / mini loader or whatever your "edge" is. You charge what you need to just beat the competition and no less. This means that on that day you made extra, more than your "day rate", you can now afford to go cheap the next day in order to win a job you know will be up against cheap competition. So long as you make your weekly target it doesn't matter if you do one job for £150 so long as you got in a £750 or whatever. Set your self a challenging but achievable weekly target and go for it for 6 months, see what happens. My business has really taken off since I started doing this. Give it a try.

I haven't always turned that much, I used to charge less. You're right about kit making a difference, but the temptation is to charge for your time rather than the job. Say you are asked to take down a big tree, a competitor may put 3 days on it with a transit and 6" chipper, he might be cheap at £350 a day, so he's 1050, you could charge 950 inc vat, but as its only a days work for you, you may be tempted to only charge 650?? The jobs where your kit pays are the ones where you can charge more and still win. Other jobs where your kit gives you no advantage you will have to go cheap to be competetive. Look at every job through the eyes of the competition and imagine how long it will take them, then you can maximize the benefits if you're kit . TD Tree & Land Services Ltd.

Smokey, but you should easily be able to get rid of everything up to 8" thick. Sizzle sizzle.

Tim, Dave, I know there are regional differences, however I still stand by my posts. All my life I have been an arrogant know it all, just ask my school teachers! I see a problem and I instantly have an idea how to proceed, it may not be the right idea but I have always had a very firm belief that I am right and my methods will succeed. This has been a problem and I have had to learn how to learn from others, AT has been a great help to me as well. This is just the way I am made and it has one big advantage, my positive outlook and self belief keeps me going and gets me where I need to be. I honestly believe that it is possible to charge more and still find plenty of work, wherever you live. Don't get me wrong, we work really hard, today we have felled a 4 stemmed 50' willow, 2 stems winched out of a river, driven to another town felled a 65' ash, a small sorbus, a 40' oak, monolithed a 80' beech and taken a broken top out of a 60' oak. we finished after dark, the lads will get paid a little extra when the contract is done as a reward for the extra hours they have put in. There are loads of tree surgeons round here, ( and now Matin as well) and there is plenty of money in Glasgow as we were discussing the other day tim. If you believe that you can't charge more then that is what will happen, If you believe you can then you will. Changing your beliefs isn't easy but it is possible. For you non vat reg guys consider this; there will be vat reg co's on your area, and every now and then you will beat them on price and you will know that you beat them. You'll feel great and this will re-enforce your belief that you are right to be doing what you are doing. Yet you will still see this competitor around, and he will still seem to be busy. How is he doing it? you're in the right aren't you?... He makes his business work and you can either continue to work in his shadow, picking on the scraps that fall from his table, or rise to the challenge and compete with him and see what happens. You make your own luck in life. No one else will do it for you. I make no apologies for being evangelical on this subject.

So if your van blows up tomorrow can you afford a new one? Chipper? what happens when you kit is worn out and needs replacing? can you afford to go out tomorrow and buy a second hand chipper, £6-8k? Its a H&S requirement that you have 2 guys on site when climbing, how can you work alone? If you are a gardener and just do hedges and wee stuff then fair enough but I was referring to tree surgeons / arborists in the posts I made. Having kit that is paid for doesn't mean that you should be cheaper, its just a different way of working from someone who hires it in and claims the cost against tax. Do you work part time? That would be different. Is there a company in your area who is vat reg?

I'll stand by it. If your under that vat threshold you are only turning 60something? How can this pay you a decent wage? your overheads must be close to 50K? van, chipper, wages etc. how much do you spend on staff? You personally can't be taking much more than 10k a year? As recent discussions have shown, benefit claimants get much more than that! I learned the hard way, started out working a 2 man team for £220 a day, utter madness. I have been there and done that, its no way to live. Going vat reg will loose you work. But thats no reason not to do it, you will win work that you otherwise wouldn't get. There will always be someone out there cheaper than you. Just let them be, they can do the jobs for the customers for whom price is the only issue and you can do the jobs for the customers who value service more highly. I have won countless jobs where I was much more expensive than the next quote, because people believe that we will provide them with a better/ safer/ higher quality service. I am not saying that I am better than you. But being vat reg and giving the impression that I am a bigger more successful company will often win the day. There is a guy near me who is dirt cheap, he does a few logs, and fencing, and lambing in the spring, he will do jobs for less than half of what I will. I just let him get on with it, he will always be busy, but he is only one guy, there is only so much work he can do. He can't do it all. He does all the skin flints and I do the rest. Imagine the guys at the BMW salesroom all crying because Kia and Hyundi are much cheaper. Does a BMW do anything a kia does not? why doesn't everyone drive Kias? because for MANY people price isn't the only issue. This principle works with all jobs, not just the small ones. I am currently working on a £50k LA contract that was won over another firm who were £0000's cheaper, yet I won because of the quality of our work, H&S, quals etc. Invest in quality and charge more.

We had a similar problem for a while, the engineer who came out was good and traced the fault to a neighbour 1/4 mile up the road who had damaged the cable putting the drive in. It was repaired but then a while later the line got struck by lightening and when they repaired it they only patched it up, our broadband is fine but our phone line is crap, very faint. We can't get them to replace it as its nearly 4 miles of cable and it only serves about 10 people. simple economics and one of the bad points of living in the sticks. I wish they could invest some of the money they are spending giving city folk fibre optic broadband on improving rural services. I get 1.2 meg, fibre gives 20meg!

Take your business bank statements for the last year and add up ALL your outgoings, (you can do this on line and export it into an excel sheet to add it up if you know how, just don't ask me) then divide that figure by 200. this gives you an accurate break even day rate figure, then add £200 to that and you have a proper day rate. It breaks my heart when I see how cheap some of the people on here work, If you are one of them, take heed, you will either end up giving up and going back to work for someone else or leaving the industry altogether. This is a great job and you should be able to make a decent living from it, if you are one of the ones who posts up that you are saving up for a new rope, hitch climber, chainsaw or other small piece of kit THEN YOU AREN'T CHARGING ENOUGH. A two man team should turnover 80k minimum, any less and you are doing something wrong, if you work part time or look after your kids some of the time thats different, but if you are out there working full time then you should be making a decent wage.

how long will it take you?

I think the solution is to change the way benefits are paid rather than reduce them, paid in vouchers (on a smart card) which can only be redeemed against essentials, food clothes etc, NOT sky tv, booze, fags, and sportswear.

what about western red cedar?

it is a bit of a joke that you can get 30k+ on benefits when there will be many couples out there who both work 40hrs a week and take home less. 26k seems like a lot when you look at it like that!

Not often, but thats part of the reason for the charge.

My minimum is 180. Unless I happen to be working next door.

£300 minimum. I can't believe how cheap some of you guys are! I won't do any programmed job for less than £180, even if its just a 5 minute job. Ok if you are next door working on another job than I'll do wee things for £50 but £180 is a minimum charge for any programmed job.

I find semi chisel is rubbish for boring, stick with full chisel, just try a different brand if you can't get on with the one you have. One tip I have is to apply pressure in the direction of the pulling side of the bar as you bore in, rather than just go straight in.

Looking at the lichen is seems to be real, or a VERY good fake...

10 days!!! looked more like 60 foot to me. I'd have that done in a day easy..... might need to fell a few of those ferns to get the tractor in though.