treeseer

True enough; the cosmetic demigods here are the landscape architects, who like things all linear and appearance rules. I've toured countries where over a dozen tree species were planted along one street, and shown them pictures--stunned silence. heresy to most here. But that's aesthetics Intervention to treat infections and make the tree stay around a bit longer, that's practical arboriculture, all about conserving tree value. And it's no more understood or accepted here than the UK or the low lands. It's different, for starters. we can wait until it gets published--in the UK-- as research. Hold your laughter til then, or not, but yours won't be the last laugh. Trees depend on macrofungi?...maybe so, but you'd have a lot harder time convincing most other US arborists of that concept--they would not even listen. I've sipped the soil food web doctrine, but remain unconvinced that it applies so tightly to trees as tssm/tsse. But I'm listening and looking. Titivating trees may be titillating, but it can also be debilitating!

Not claiming expertise; just showing results. You're right; ecologists are barely related to arborists, all too often. i'll take it down to the local U; thanks.

Agreed, but what choices does the climber have? No matter the political environment, it's a bat-tree-arborist issue. Would a judge convict an arborist who safely relocated habitat, versus chucking it through the chipper? Those type of laws, on either side of the Atlantic, are meant to guide conservation, not prevent it.

Good advice, but I wonder if this consultation is necessary. If one encounters a bat in a tree to be removed, 1 reconsider removing it, or 2 remove the inhabited section carefully, and secure it in a nearby tree. The attached pic shows a flying squirrel that stayed in the same house, even after it was moved 50 feet away to another tree. "Defences include: Tending/caring for a bat solely for the purpose of restoring it to health and subsequent release..." To my eye, this includes the above suitable mitigation measure.

Again with the tag team. Okay, " ... your doing work to trees without even diagnosing the cause of the lesions for a start..." The process of diagnosis is underway, but hampered by my ignorance of how to ID the cause of the lesions. If you can point me to a reference, that would be great. "and making dangerous assumptions on the potential of the symptoms to be infectious." When one sees dead tissue spreading, one can assume it was and is being killed; the cause of the signs (not symptoms) of disease is considered infectious, because it killed, and is killing, tree tissue. "Im not suggesting I have the ultimate answer to this and a suitable treatment, but I certainly wouldnt be doing ANYTHING without first fully understanding what organisms and problems exist." Really? So you won't be pruning any trees before this full understanding is reached? Time to set the saw down, then, unless by "full" you mean "adequate". "I suggest you speak to Dr Olaf about how he is dealing with it." Thanks; i'll try knocking at that door. 1. Who's observations and considered by who ? As always, just yours I assume ? As usual, I'm the one assigned to care for the tree, and I consult available references first and throughout treatment. Hence my post to the helpful colleagues at arbtalk! "Did you assess and identify the bacteria responsible for the production of the organic acids ?" References indicate a 'cocktail' of organisms typically at work. Labs in the past have been unable to ID an agent. So no, I do not submit a sample every time. " Did you exclude the smell of skunky beer being present because of acids produced by the tree itself and oozed as a reaction to an infection with Armillaria ?" No, nor did I exclude the possibility of a beer truck overturning. There were no signs of either. "And did you exclude Phytophthora as the pathogen responsible for the black oozing ?" Not at all; rather, I suspect it is at least partially responsible. "...So you have succeeded in effectively destroying pathogens such as Pseudomonas, Phytophthora, Chalara and Armillaria ?" No such exaggerated claim. I only remove *dead* tissue, breaking no barriers, and dry out the margins. The tree puts on healthy growth, closing the wounds. Where is the problem When there's a reliable way to tell what has caused a particular bleeding lesion, I'll be very glad to hear of it, and pursue identification. When there's a better way to manage a problem that has killed all the cambium and other parenchyma in an area, to at least lessen the odds of it spreading, I'll use it. If any of these treatments are covered in adequate detail in your encyclopedia, I'll buy it! Thanks for your comments.

Gerrit, your ears have not been slapped. Nothing here that is not in Diseases of Trees and Shrubs, Cornell U. Observations: lesions rarely dry up and close on their own. Observations: treated lesions very often dry up and close. Re-treated lesions are usually much smaller, and also have a high closure rate. Observations: Bark that oozes and smells of skunky beer is considered infectious. The smell is often from organic acids produced by bacteria. Adjacent areas tend to get those symptoms, and die. Soil amendments and aeration are part of the treatment package, but it's less work and more effective to just replace as much soil as possible. It's been demonstrated and I believe published in the UK. For the tree, these treatments are standard, and usually effective. From the point of view of the fungi and bacteria, these treatments are destructive. Depends on your point of view, doesn't it?

Well duh, as the kids say. It is almost that simple; details in attached 3. I'll take more pics by tomorrow, and try youtubing the cauterization and other treatments. What are "soil locking points"? And what type of great care do you recommend should be taken with root pruning? Shigo cautioned on this but frankly that was without much--any?--experience, and no research. Why not just be satisfied with phosphite drench and soil works? Because they do not always work, and...the ooze appears infectious, so it seems neglectful in a way to just leave it. And, the tissue that's been killed blocks the way for treatments to reach the active infection, so why just leave it there? It's not helping the tree any more. Attached 1-2004 reviews cleaning and drenching but not cauterization. 2-2010 does. Both went to 20,000+ without *any* negative feedback, fwiw. O and David i hope the early note on diverse = sustainable street tree plantings makes sense in 2; the invisible hand of a sustainable plan. LBG III Managing Stem-Girdling Roots1.doc.pdf Dendro 15 Stubborn Streaks.pdf Ooze in the News small.pdf

"Gotta love the attempt, I mean how big was this wound guy? 31" above grade, continuous. "Q. rubra is particularly prone to honey, What evidence or fact brings that in at this point? "and doesnt cope well with pruning wounds. Pruned 2 years before; visible closure. Not sure anyone can generalize to that detail. This basal wound in the sinus indicates the only wounding may be included bark between buttresses. "How much die back was present in the canopy? None. Crown not dense, not thin. David, cauterization seems like a logical practice, on waterborne buggers in particular. Bartlett in the UK may be researching it on horsechestnut at present.

Bleeding lesions of undefined origin duly noted--not unusual, unless i missed something. Cleaned and cauterized a patch 3' x 2' on a Q rubra yesterday.

Yes, looking through gloomy glasses there, at a crystal ball that always seems chock full of black shoestrings.

"just the obvious one that *will* be, an old birch on a lean in a wood with a white rot fungi at the core, cant last forever but not suggesting the lucidum will be the ultimate cause but that a secondary "weakness" parasite *will* be." Tony, Sorry to be a wet blanket, but the verb "will" means you made absolute predictions. If these predicted events do not happen as you said they *will*, what you said was indeed not true at all.

Could it possibly be closure of an old wound? The rolling ribs of woundwood can be like "ram's horns" pushing against each other and potentially cracking apart in a severe weather event? (as described by Shigo) Personally it looks low risk to me, but a bit of probing in there should tell you more about the origin and the prognosis. Looks kinda young to be dividing into columns--but I am a long ways off geographically, and may be a long ways off otherwise too!

Nice pic; pretty color on the fb. The infection--ok, association--looks aggravated--ok,toward favoring the fungus--by that stem inclusion above. But the stem is large and it nourishes the woundwood, so it stays, no doubt. With that much woundwood growth, how much stability is lost? How much to reduce? I would think not much...

Yes, looking through gloomy glasses there, at a crystal ball that always seems chock full of black shoestrings. Epic work with that device there. Even lacking that tool and expertise, there are other assessment and treatment methods that, if used in a sober fashion, can lead to other outcomes than felling.

" As for the cord getting caught up, simple solution is to just hold the cord and rotate the pruner a few times (so the cord is 3 or 4 times wrapped around the pole) and move around with it like that, then just unwrap the cord when cutting. Simple." Ah, I had not thought of that...thanks! I like wolfgarten best; fiskars good too; depends on the tree.

Just observations: not for publishing, beyond a forum post! I did read a very nice dissertation on spiculosis though; cited. Do I get points for that? They are both biotrophic and parasitic, slowly killing their (yes, different) hosts. Appearance of heart rot and basal branch decay looks similar from here. P. spiculosis smelled like hay--how about P tuberculosis? Ascribing a "why" to plant or other non-human behavior almost seems like teleology.

Looks and acts a lot like Phellinus spiculosis, which has its way with some Carya spp. here. http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/images/upload/271261-Dendro18SpuriousSpikes.pdf Gorgeous images thank you!

What is it about the vascular system that makes us think it is unidirectional? Water rises up in the xylem, and sap flows down in the phloem, is what I was taught, but...like much of what I was taught, maybe that was oversimplified. Resources in solution are sent all round the tree. Dormant buds are oriented "up", so regrowth from them will start in the "wrong" direction until gravitropism takes hold. Newly formed adventitious buds would be less so inclined? Good question.

If they came to you too dry, you may be due a refund. When Root Washing container plants, they are typically soaked overnight. Good luck and Happy Arbor Day!

Tony I agree there is a level of frustration at having someone describe it, rather than getting one's hands on and directly connecting. However the advantage of the group is hearing not only the history and the current management but also the interaction with others; comparisons with other methods, etc. that does not come from flying solo. Gotta rest the hands a bit now and then, for other receptors to function optimally. I plan to get there in advance and direct connect first (and after?); try to get the best of both. http://www.internationaloaksociety.org/sites/www.internationaloaksociety.org/files/Programme_Update_February_12.pdf

The schedule is set. From the soil food web, to pollards and pruning, to evolution and adaptation, and back to truffles. http://www.internationaloaksociety.org/s...February_12.pdf

Excellent post--agrees with experience over here, and with a recent study in the AUF journal--mulched trees in both nurseries and orchards outperformed bare ground or mowing. What kind of mulch--can one go wrong by mulching with material similar to the subject tree(s)? "...the tree, which is the part of the ecosystem I'm most interested in. "...the tree, which is the part of the ecosystem I'm most interested in. "..the tree, which is the part of the ecosystem I'm most interested in. Thank you for reminding us of an arborist's #1 priority! Aeration and attention to nutrients may be needed where diminishing soil oxygen and increasing (or decreasing) soil nitrogen levels are a concern.

Just wondering how this would be diagnosed in the UK (if the owner or arborist wanted this done). Here the first step might be to pull away dead material, look, smell, touch, and non invasively probe.

On the buckle, it sure does not look like girdling. Great list, Tony--Ambitious and Admirable! 6 lifetime's worth. "and re evaluate CODIT, spin the demons of D, re investigate Thermo and prove its immense potential contribution. +1 "Turn an industry wide standpoint of reductions as wounding and tree abuse into a respected, viable and VALUED aspect of tree retention/management. Pruning is always going to be wounding, but agreed--it could use more respect! "Bring together all the current research on decay and strategies of fungi into an easily readable and useable format. (how many arbs own books like that?) None, and none may ever! Luley's manual is a good start in this direction. "and establish a basic tool kit for working arbs that will enable assessment of tree health, soil quality (potential to survive is in the soil) Top ten tools for assessment! "Describe the proscess of reduction evaluation and methods in greatest detail (looking for an artist) Check Gilman's site for some of this; a good start. As is Fay's graphic of gradual veteranization via retrenchment. Images of reduction's effects over time are seldom telling (looking for a photographer, and the right trees) "Most importantly make sure it is all acurate as possible, scientificaly so too so that it can be used to educate the educators who to this day are teaching their students that inonotus dryadeus and hispidus are blanket fells, no arguments, (recent example):thumb down: Good luck with that one--I thought/dreamed I did it 10 years ago with reviewing Schwarze's first book, and work since, but fear never dies, as rust never sleeps. But there is progress for you to build on, and that is good.

One could say that. Overmore, from a different perspective, one could also say pruning's largely overdone. If one had to choose, consider that one preserves canopy and the other takes it away. Which meets the objective--The Lady or the Tiger? If the objective is tree benefits and contributions, it's connecting with The Lady, where possible. If the objective is saproxylic additions to the tssecosystem, it's cutting with The Tiger. But either may be best, and most trees appreciate a wee bit o' pruning