Tony Martin, again!

[Billhook]

Was there? as I understand it 2 burglars entered his property without his consent, he attempted to protect himself/his property with a shotgun that was judged to be illegally held only on the basis that it was capable of holding more than 2 cartridges in the magazine, it isn't as if he was in possession of an assault rifle.

 

There was of course the issue of where he actually opened fire from but IMO that's a case of muddying the waters, bottom line if the burglers hadn't been in his property without his consent they'd wouldn't have been shot.

 

 

I think the law as it stands is reasonable. It is something like "A person of sound mind must have reasonable apprehension that his or his family's life is in immediate danger, and the force used must be proportional"

 

This leaves it flexible enough for a jury to decide.

 

I think you need to have heard the full story and there definitely is a fine line here.

He had been a victim of many thefts and was at his wits end without much help from the police.

 

However he was telling people at the local pub about his plans to lay a trap for them and indeed he cut half way through the steps of the ladder going down the cellar where they usually came in.

When he confronted them with a shotgun he was not in immediate danger as they were not armed and he shot one of them running away.

So there was premeditation and unlawful killing.

 

A week or so later another story hit the press in another part of the country where a man heard a disturbance in his kitchen, went down to investigate and was attacked by a burglar. He grabbed the nearest thing to defend himself which was a kitchen knife and fatally stabbed the man.

He was acquitted quite reasonably.

 

You cannot have a situation where a man like Tony Martin, driven to desperation is allowed to shoot anyone on his land. It may be that one of you lot has an accident near his farm, your wife and kids are trapped in the car and you need a phone for help only to be greeted with blasts from a shotgun.

[TGB]

Police not responding to any degree of crime, is the tip of the pyramid. Just as minor today, might have been serious yesterday. What is serious today, may become minor tomorrow. Mr. Peel will be turning in his grave. It's becoming a policing organisation in name only.

 

If you work on the bins, at least you can differentiate between trash and the householder. One is to be collected and to be got rid of; while the other is served, as the latter are paying the binman's wage. The police have lost their way. They no longer serve those that lawfully pay their way through life. And instead serve only the wealthy in the towers of power; and the dank-dwellers by their inaction.

 

The powers that be and what have become their henchmen, (courts). Have little interest in protecting the vulnerable and those that have been abandoned, to protect themselves, their loved ones and processions. It's hard work chasing those that dwell in the shadows and scarper in white vans. Far easier to target those, that can't run away, because they've put down roots and are good part of the community.

 

I'm not saying all lords/ladies/MPs are bad, nor that if you're monied you get treated better. But we've passed the time, when Joe Bloggs can ring those that are suppose to protect and expect the same degree of justice, as those with a title; those with 'old money'; and those that dwell in the shadows.

 

At this point, most would be saying, "Rant over". But in times gone by, there would have been revolution by now. But instead of hands going up. The just seems to be just floodwaters and taxes. The only things going round, are dank-dwellers and their plied trade in thievery and misery.

Edited January 1, 2016 by TGB

[R Mac]

I think the law as it stands is reasonable. It is something like "A person of sound mind must have reasonable apprehension that his or his family's life is in immediate danger, and the force used must be proportional"

 

This leaves it flexible enough for a jury to decide.

 

I think you need to have heard the full story and there definitely is a fine line here.

He had been a victim of many thefts and was at his wits end without much help from the police.

 

However he was telling people at the local pub about his plans to lay a trap for them and indeed he cut half way through the steps of the ladder going down the cellar where they usually came in.

When he confronted them with a shotgun he was not in immediate danger as they were not armed and he shot one of them running away.

So there was premeditation and unlawful killing.

 

A week or so later another story hit the press in another part of the country where a man heard a disturbance in his kitchen, went down to investigate and was attacked by a burglar. He grabbed the nearest thing to defend himself which was a kitchen knife and fatally stabbed the man.

He was acquitted quite reasonably.

 

You cannot have a situation where a man like Tony Martin, driven to desperation is allowed to shoot anyone on his land. It may be that one of you lot has an accident near his farm, your wife and kids are trapped in the car and you need a phone for help only to be greeted with blasts from a shotgun.

 

I suspect that a person needing to use a phone in an emergency would be unlikely to break and enter in an attempt to use it, not impossible but unlikely.

[MattyF]

Police not responding to any degree of crime, is the tip of the pyramid. Just as minor today, might have been serious yesterday. What is serious today, may become minor tomorrow. Mr. Peel will be turning in his grave. It's becoming a policing organisation in name only.

 

If you work on the bins, at least you can differentiate between trash and the householder. One is to be collected and to be got rid of; while the other is served, as the latter are paying the binman's wage. The police have lost their way. They no longer serve those that lawfully pay their way through life. And instead serve only the wealthy in the towers of power; and the dank-dwellers by their inaction.

 

The powers that be and what have become their henchmen, (courts). Have little interest in protecting the vulnerable and those that have been abandoned, to protect themselves, their loved ones and processions. It's hard work chasing those that dwell in the shadows and scarper in white vans. Far easier to target those, that can't run away, because they've put down roots and are good part of the community.

 

I'm not saying all lords/ladies/MPs are bad, nor that if you're monied you get treated better. But we've passed the time, when Joe Bloggs can ring those that are suppose to protect and expect the same degree of justice, as those with a title; those with 'old money'; and those that dwell in the shadows.

 

At this point, most would be saying, "Rant over". But in times gone by, there would have been revolution by now. But instead of hands going up. The just seems to be just floodwaters and taxes. The only things going round, are dank-dwellers and their plied trade in thievery and misery.

 

 

Very well put .

[Billhook]

I suspect that a person needing to use a phone in an emergency would be unlikely to break and enter in an attempt to use it, not impossible but unlikely.

 

Yes, but a person whose becomes unhinged by a series of unfortunate factors such as constant thefts and lack of police help, may become of "unsound mind" and take a pot at anyone who appears walking up the drive in the dark.

A loner without any friends, sleeping rough and in fear would expect everyone on his land to be an enemy.

[Billhook]

Police not responding to any degree of crime, is the tip of the pyramid. Just as minor today, might have been serious yesterday. What is serious today, may become minor tomorrow. Mr. Peel will be turning in his grave. It's becoming a policing organisation in name only.

 

If you work on the bins, at least you can differentiate between trash and the householder. One is to be collected and to be got rid of; while the other is served, as the latter are paying the binman's wage. The police have lost their way. They no longer serve those that lawfully pay their way through life. And instead serve only the wealthy in the towers of power; and the dank-dwellers by their inaction.

 

The powers that be and what have become their henchmen, (courts). Have little interest in protecting the vulnerable and those that have been abandoned, to protect themselves, their loved ones and processions. It's hard work chasing those that dwell in the shadows and scarper in white vans. Far easier to target those, that can't run away, because they've put down roots and are good part of the community.

 

I'm not saying all lords/ladies/MPs are bad, nor that if you're monied you get treated better. But we've passed the time, when Joe Bloggs can ring those that are suppose to protect and expect the same degree of justice, as those with a title; those with 'old money'; and those that dwell in the shadows.

 

At this point, most would be saying, "Rant over". But in times gone by, there would have been revolution by now. But instead of hands going up. The just seems to be just floodwaters and taxes. The only things going round, are dank-dwellers and their plied trade in thievery and misery.

 

Yes there is a level of lawlessness in this country and the bar is creeping up.

I would not expect much police response if I phoned to say that I have hare coursing going on or even a workshop theft and car/tractor thefts are deemed to be covered with insurance and as long as nobody is hurt it is pointless for the police to fill in a mound of paperwork only to see culprits even if caught, let off with community service which they never turn up for.

 

However you may find a difference if you phone and say that there is an armed gang in your shed........

[Midge]

I think the law as it stands is reasonable. It is something like "A person of sound mind must have reasonable apprehension that his or his family's life is in immediate danger, and the force used must be proportional"

 

This leaves it flexible enough for a jury to decide.

 

I think you need to have heard the full story and there definitely is a fine line here.

He had been a victim of many thefts and was at his wits end without much help from the police.

 

However he was telling people at the local pub about his plans to lay a trap for them and indeed he cut half way through the steps of the ladder going down the cellar where they usually came in.

When he confronted them with a shotgun he was not in immediate danger as they were not armed and he shot one of them running away.

So there was premeditation and unlawful killing.

 

A week or so later another story hit the press in another part of the country where a man heard a disturbance in his kitchen, went down to investigate and was attacked by a burglar. He grabbed the nearest thing to defend himself which was a kitchen knife and fatally stabbed the man.

He was acquitted quite reasonably.

 

You cannot have a situation where a man like Tony Martin, driven to desperation is allowed to shoot anyone on his land. It may be that one of you lot has an accident near his farm, your wife and kids are trapped in the car and you need a phone for help only to be greeted with blasts from a shotgun.

 

To me as soon as somebody enters your property without your consent then your families lives are at risk!

 

Also if he wanted to saw half way through his ladders steps why shouldn't he? They are his ladders on his property.

 

However, I understand why he was charged because of the situation (they were running away and were shot from behind) but the guy had just had enough of scum breaking into his property taking his stuff!

[aspenarb]

When I saw this thread I was expecting to see his name had been added to the honours list, perhaps an MBE or at the very least The Queen’s Gallantry Medal.

 

Bob

[R Mac]

Yes, but a person whose becomes unhinged by a series of unfortunate factors such as constant thefts and lack of police help, may become of "unsound mind" and take a pot at anyone who appears walking up the drive in the dark.

A loner without any friends, sleeping rough and in fear would expect everyone on his land to be an enemy.

 

You can make as many hypothetical cases as you like about what may or may not happen, fact is they were in his house, uninvited got shot, running away? is the home owner supposed to make a judgement call, did he know how many intruders there were? Easy to look at it with hindsight when you aren't the one dealing with events as they unfold. Bottom line is if they hadn't been preying on the vulnerable they wouldn't have come to harm, zero sympathy from me. So he laid some traps? so what, his property and in this case inside his actual dwelling. Is the fact that he may have been unhinged (was he unhinged anyway, he didn't drive to the nearest town and gun down innocent civilians and then claim diminished responsibility) due to prior events and lack of help from the forces of law and order mean that he is no longer entitled to defend himself and his property

 

As far as premeditated goes, look at how many people on here have suffered from theft in the past couple of months, how many said they'd like to get their hands on whoever did it, in 6 months time if they happened to be on site when a break in took place and were forced to defend themselves would things they've said in the heat of the moment now mean that their future actions were premeditated? A prosecution layer would argue that it was but that doesn't make it so.

 

The need to defend yourself in a court of law for actions taken in trying to defend yourself or your property against charges brought by the forces of law and order who it could be argued were partly to blame for the situation arising due to their failings is nothing short of shameful.

[Billhook]

I agree with you but it is the law that you cannot shoot someone in such a premeditated manner and that is the way the jury saw it.

It would be fine to make a human "rat trap" in a premeditated way. A sort of cage that they are lured into by a stack of shiny tools, and when they pick up the tools the doors close behind them and locks them in

 

Then you could have some fun as long as you did not physically harm them!