New top handle policy....

[Treewolf]

... Under the UK HASAWA, this means that we require cs39 or 46 ...

 

Several popular misconceptions here.

 

It is entirely legal for anyone to buy a top-handled saw in this country, and for anyone to be sold a top-handled saw in this country, without any qualifications or evidence of such whatsoever. There is absolutely no offence committed and no recourse if it happens.

 

HASAW and other laws only apply to the workplace, and only to the provision and use of equipment, and in fact even then do not mandate that the user of a top-handled saw has any certification whatsoever. The law does however require that employees who use equipment are properly trained and competent to use it, and in this respect a top-handled saw is no different from any other tool or equipment. The industry has elected for simplicity to create and adopt the guidline that this competence for a top-handled can most easily be demonstrated by holding CS39 or 46, but the law does not require it.

 

As an employer, I could let someone use a topper provided that I have adequate demonstrable means to show how it is that I know the user is competent. This is easiest by the CS39/46 route, but there may be other ways (such as evidence of 30-years accident free use, etc).

 

The dealer will have agreed with the supplier not to sell to non-certificated users, but this is a contractual matter between the dealer and the supplier and the only recourse would be for the supplier to stop supplying that dealer if he thought that unapproved sales were taking place (plus possibly other actions if provided for in the contract between dealer and supplier).

 

Remember also that all the HASAW laws apply only to the workplace. It is entirely legal for Johnny Homeowner to chop up firewood on the ground with his Ebay-purchase topper, holding the wood in his left hand and the saw in his teeth if he so wishes.

[Garyjp]

several popular misconceptions here.

 

 

 

It is entirely legal for anyone to buy a top-handled saw in this country, and for anyone to be sold a top-handled saw in this country, without any qualifications or evidence of such whatsoever. There is absolutely no offence committed and no recourse if it happens.

 

 

 

Hasaw and other laws only apply to the workplace, and only to the provision and use of equipment, and in fact even then do not mandate that the user of a top-handled saw has any certification whatsoever. The law does however require that employees who use equipment are properly trained and competent to use it, and in this respect a top-handled saw is no different from any other tool or equipment. The industry has elected for simplicity to create and adopt the guidline that this competence for a top-handled can most easily be demonstrated by holding cs39 or 46, but the law does not require it.

 

 

 

As an employer, i could let someone use a topper provided that i have adequate demonstrable means to show how it is that i know the user is competent. This is easiest by the cs39/46 route, but there may be other ways (such as evidence of 30-years accident free use, etc).

 

 

 

The dealer will have agreed with the supplier not to sell to non-certificated users, but this is a contractual matter between the dealer and the supplier and the only recourse would be for the supplier to stop supplying that dealer if he thought that unapproved sales were taking place (plus possibly other actions if provided for in the contract between dealer and supplier).

 

 

 

Remember also that all the hasaw laws apply only to the workplace. It is entirely legal for johnny homeowner to chop up firewood on the ground with his ebay-purchase topper, holding the wood in his left hand and the saw in his teeth if he so wishes.

 

 

👍👍👍👍👍

[Stubby]

Several popular misconceptions here.

 

It is entirely legal for anyone to buy a top-handled saw in this country, and for anyone to be sold a top-handled saw in this country, without any qualifications or evidence of such whatsoever. There is absolutely no offence committed and no recourse if it happens.

 

HASAW and other laws only apply to the workplace, and only to the provision and use of equipment, and in fact even then do not mandate that the user of a top-handled saw has any certification whatsoever. The law does however require that employees who use equipment are properly trained and competent to use it, and in this respect a top-handled saw is no different from any other tool or equipment. The industry has elected for simplicity to create and adopt the guidline that this competence for a top-handled can most easily be demonstrated by holding CS39 or 46, but the law does not require it.

 

As an employer, I could let someone use a topper provided that I have adequate demonstrable means to show how it is that I know the user is competent. This is easiest by the CS39/46 route, but there may be other ways (such as evidence of 30-years accident free use, etc).

 

The dealer will have agreed with the supplier not to sell to non-certificated users, but this is a contractual matter between the dealer and the supplier and the only recourse would be for the supplier to stop supplying that dealer if he thought that unapproved sales were taking place (plus possibly other actions if provided for in the contract between dealer and supplier).

 

Remember also that all the HASAW laws apply only to the workplace. It is entirely legal for Johnny Homeowner to chop up firewood on the ground with his Ebay-purchase topper, holding the wood in his left hand and the saw in his teeth if he so wishes.

 

Exfrigginzactly .

[54gka]

As above I've had mates go into a couple of local dealers and brought top handle saws.Dealer says there is no law stating that anybody needs a ticket licence for home use but they did get them to sign some sort of an agreement to say it is only to be used for domestic and not commercial use.I personally think its a bit of a tricky subject and think anyone wanting to buy a chainsaw should do the training.Im not the only one whilst shopping at my local dealer to see young or old jo public walk in and out with 60cc plus saw with never even starting one hows that right.One of our local dealers has starting to do a basic hours show how when jo public buys a saw which is a good idea.

[wood cutter]

Which means people just buy a chinese jobby off ebay.

 

No income tax

No VAT

No money back

No guarantee

 

Black or white

Rich or poor

Chop your hands off let blood pour!

 

 

Lol brilliant

[Eddy_t]

Several popular misconceptions here.

 

 

 

It is entirely legal for anyone to buy a top-handled saw in this country, and for anyone to be sold a top-handled saw in this country, without any qualifications or evidence of such whatsoever. There is absolutely no offence committed and no recourse if it happens.

 

 

 

HASAW and other laws only apply to the workplace, and only to the provision and use of equipment, and in fact even then do not mandate that the user of a top-handled saw has any certification whatsoever. The law does however require that employees who use equipment are properly trained and competent to use it, and in this respect a top-handled saw is no different from any other tool or equipment. The industry has elected for simplicity to create and adopt the guidline that this competence for a top-handled can most easily be demonstrated by holding CS39 or 46, but the law does not require it.

 

 

 

As an employer, I could let someone use a topper provided that I have adequate demonstrable means to show how it is that I know the user is competent. This is easiest by the CS39/46 route, but there may be other ways (such as evidence of 30-years accident free use, etc).

 

 

 

The dealer will have agreed with the supplier not to sell to non-certificated users, but this is a contractual matter between the dealer and the supplier and the only recourse would be for the supplier to stop supplying that dealer if he thought that unapproved sales were taking place (plus possibly other actions if provided for in the contract between dealer and supplier).

 

 

 

Remember also that all the HASAW laws apply only to the workplace. It is entirely legal for Johnny Homeowner to chop up firewood on the ground with his Ebay-purchase topper, holding the wood in his left hand and the saw in his teeth if he so wishes.

 

 

Never said it was a legal issue, I said proof of being a professional user. But the easiest way to prove you're professional is, as stated by the health and safety at work act, trained competent. Easiest way for that is one of those tickets, although most dealers will have never seen cs46. Proving you have 30 years experience is a lot harder if you haven't known the dealer for very long.

 

Returning back to your 'HASAWA only applies to workplaces' statement, where else do you find professional tree workers? It's perfectly legal to do a lot of things until you get paid to do them.

 

And finally, legal is different to contract agreement (to an extent). Legally I can buy aluminium phosphide tablets, but I'll be buggered if I can source some where they don't want to see a pesticides ticket, with a registered chemical storage. Dealers are contractually obliged to request proof of being professional, but they don't have to by law, they'll just have the supply taken away if they don't do as the supplier says.

 

There have even been similar cases on here, where the supplier has said do/don't do this, somebody didn't listen, now the supply has been removed.

[GardenKit]

This subject is a bit vague, I have been a small, independent dealer for 13 years, and sold saws for years before that. I have never had a definitive answer on this subject.

 

I think Treewolf has it about summed up.

 

It seems that a good few years ago the injury rate from Top Handles became a bit unacceptable and a total ban on the sales of them was on the cards. Apparently the major players introduced the 'voluntary regulation' that we understand to be 'legislation', and asked their dealers to support this 'code of conduct'.

 

But I, for one, have sold Top handles and have never been contractually obliged by any of my suppliers. I buy the major two brands from wholesalers to the trade, and a couple of lesser brands direct.

 

I do however follow the 'code' and see the CS39 which I copy and file with the proof of purchase, just in case.

Its a good code and helps to keep injury down to a level that falls beneath the radar.

 

I have never had a moan from any 'pro' user. They have their tickets and are proud of it. In general they would think less of me if I were also supplying the 'jack of all trades, trained for none' operator who was stealing their work and devaluing their service.

 

So the only people who moan are the ones who cant be bothered to get their training, or don't think the rules should apply to them.

 

The code protects the industry to some degree from cheap competition and also keeps the issue of a total ban at bay.

 

I know its easy enough to get a Top Handle from ebay, and from many dealers who do not follow the 'code'. And with the influx of so many Chinese models the market is being flooded, so before much longer the powers to be will be re-opening this can of worms. If they do and a ban ensues, then the industry will suffer a severe set back.

 

So please don't argue against the code, its there for a good purpose.

[Djvicke1]

I think it's a good thing that restrictions are used. I have my cs39 ticket and have since bought a new top handled saw.

 

The thing I found daft was how some shops are restricting the sale of top handle chainsaw's without knowing exactly what the restriction is... They looked baffled when I suggested the cs39 ticket

[Eddy_t]

I think it's a good thing that restrictions are used. I have my cs39 ticket and have since bought a new top handled saw.

 

 

 

The thing I found daft was how some shops are restricting the sale of top handle chainsaw's without knowing exactly what the restriction is... They looked baffled when I suggested the cs39 ticket

 

 

They know what the restrictions are, they just don't know what you need to say you're not restricted

 

But saying that, the arbtalk community is far more educated than what most dealers are now taught, my local doesn't understand what a muffler mod is, let alone a ported saw, but I bet I could chuck a saw on the desk of skyland or jonsie and they could fix a problem without trying to replace the muffler or cylinder at the same time. Anyone can open a shop and sell stuff, it take knowledge of a product to understand the target market.

[GardenKit]

They know what the restrictions are, they just don't know what you need to say you're not restricted

 

But saying that, the arbtalk community is far more educated than what most dealers are now taught, my local doesn't understand what a muffler mod is, let alone a ported saw, but I bet I could chuck a saw on the desk of skyland or jonsie and they could fix a problem without trying to replace the muffler or cylinder at the same time. Anyone can open a shop and sell stuff, it take knowledge of a product to understand the target market.

Eddy, the problem with some dealers not knowing what the restrictions are is that nobody tells us. This is because its not a LAW, only a code of practice, and that code is many years old now and has not been documented, or shared, well.

 

Some distributors of TH saws do not even have the disclaimer in their literature

 

But the HSE report on chainsaws says that the use of a top handled saw should be restricted to a trained operator, and I believe that to be covered by the CS39, so that is the one I ask for.

 

Why do I ask for proof of training then, if its so vague?

Because I am aware of the code and I believe it to be a good thing. It offers protection to untrained and unaware potential users, as well as protecting, to some extent, the business of the pro arborists.

Consider the village idiot who buys a TH from someone who does not ask to see his CS39. He then uses his saw one handed, because he can, and it kicks back causing serious injury or death. We live in a society where we all want to blame someone, so the widow of the poor, dead, village idiot blames the seller, as he should have known better.

Big court case, Big cost, Big payout, Insurance company declining to pay because seller flouted the code,

Just not worth the risk IMO just to make £50 on the sale.

 

As for dealers not understanding muffler mods or porting, well of course most don't. They don't need to, so it should not be held against them.

 

Porting is a hobby subject, only fully understood by a very folk in the UK, and is not generally within the remit of a dealer unless he is also keen on the hobby. The type of person who uses a modded saw is unlikely to need the services of a dealer, and most dealers (myself included) would decline to work on such a machine anyway.

 

Most dealers will understand their target market and have product knowledge to suit, but modded saws do not fall within that target.