Mobile Retorts

[steve collins]

ive been following this thread and thought id let you know more about the big boys, i worked at tregothnan making the charcoal and it was hard graft!!! 130 ton in a year and yes the chap i worked for was a subcontractor. he delt with bio-regonal and rectella in the past. we could get average 900kg-1t out of a burn in one kiln with 4 kilns running cooling was 2 days then remove and store for another 5-7 before bagging which was done with a conveyor. loading a retort took half a day and a burn lasted 16 hrs there was drying time before as well.

 

I could go on and on but dont want to bore people!!!

[timbernut]

Not boring! Always interested in how people operate big or small, I used to visit the guy who burned for big k on the fens, he had 8 9'd twin ring kilns and 4 7' ones, he produced all the charcoal for the foil trays as the imported stuff was too dense and didn't get going with the wax paper ( believe it's sometimes coated with some sort or lighter fuel as well?), the big k stuff all hardwood some from wildlife trusts, he also used s/w off cuts from mills for his own sales, not sure how much wood he used maybe 600/800,think he just does his own now (do big k now have retorts down south somewhere?)

[steve collins]

Not boring! Always interested in how people operate big or small, I used to visit the guy who burned for big k on the fens, he had 8 9'd twin ring kilns and 4 7' ones, he produced all the charcoal for the foil trays as the imported stuff was too dense and didn't get going with the wax paper ( believe it's sometimes coated with some sort or lighter fuel as well?), the big k stuff all hardwood some from wildlife trusts, he also used s/w off cuts from mills for his own sales, not sure how much wood he used maybe 600/800,think he just does his own now (do big k now have retorts down south somewhere?)

 

Ah by the sounds of who you have described was the chap i worked with down here, not sure big k has any down here but there are a few who burn but not on the scale we did, imported stuff worked out like 4p a ton cheaper delivered in and consistency not there, it was paper soaked in waxy parafin mixture, think we used in region of 1000 ton or more raw material. i know he left not long after me he had the viper kiln as well when he moved off from the fens and believe he is probably still burning somewhere!!

[timbernut]

This chap still burning in the same place but not on the scale he used to I passed recently and he only had two of the larger ones on site ( I bought two of the small ones in 2003 ) but there were several artic loads of the wee wedges from pointing stakes waiting to be used. Incidentally I have some notes written for me by one john David of southern down in Wales who worked with all sorts of kilns on a large scale from 1930 as a boy through the war ( he wasn't allowed to fight as his job was considered vital and he had all female workforce ) right up to the late 60s when the industry was well into decline. He writes about internal flues and doing smokeless burns in more urban areas (but these were not retorts!) I have been thinking of typing this up if anyone is interested as I feel it is an insight you don't often get. He died of throat cancer in about 2000 about 3 years after id started burning

Now who's boring😀

[MattyF]

Not at all , most interesting thread I've read on Arb talk in a while and I've had nothing to do with charcoal.

[Pinkfoot]

Please keep talking lads..

[MartinN]

At £16 for 3kg someone is laughing, and it won't be the maker, the one who actually does all the work!

 

I believe Bioregional were bought out by Rectella (the big boys) a while back. Bioregional had ethics but still couldn't pay the producers very much so I very much doubt whether Rectella (non ethical) are doing any better. Does anyone know what 'bioregional' producers are paid now? I would imagine that the producer is not seeing much more than a pound of the £5.30/kg selling price.

 

Almost all my charcoal goes ungraded in bulk to other wholesalers. I get around £1.20/kg for this.

I would be well advised to push for more but I am a terrible businessman!

 

To retail customers (graded and bagged hardwood) I sell by volume (large selway 'coppice

association' bags) £7.50. They sell on for around £10. I can't remember exactly what these weigh but it is around 4kg. I'll try and put one on the scales later today.

 

I suspect it could be one of the mark it up at a high price to give 50% off later.

 

Yesterday I picked up one of the Oxford Charcoal company 3kg boxes from Waitrose for £7.99 a quite acceptable price and much better than last year when they did small 1.25kg bags for £6 if my memory serves me correctly.

 

The supermarkets always run out way to quickly round here, just as the BBQ season starts, so there must be more market opportunities for uk charcoal.

 

I did some serious research into getting into producing charcoal last year.

 

I was quoted £1,000 per ton collected but bagged by me, last year.

 

My logic was around here it would be not so difficult to get into the shops on the grounds that uk charcoal sold out at the beginning of the season. I even tried to order in a dozen bags locally and they could not get any. Sold out.

 

I quite liked the look of the Exeter retort but couldn't square the cost vs the yield.

 

I have spent some time developing (on paper) a retort system that would be man portable, i.e. Could be taken into woodland by one person, without machinery, to where wood is felled and which is also expandable.

 

I approached an estate owner locally to prototype the system but to no avail. I think he was interested in doing it himself as he already has a large firewood business.

 

Here in the Midlands there is a lack of woodland. Or at least that I can't find.

 

I'm quite happy to buy wood in to try to commission a working system but I don't think my neighbour, who does't like wee small bonfires, would appreciate me burning 4 m3 of wood in my back garden.

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

I have read a report that a single person could, with hard work produce 1.5 tons charcoal a week. I was hoping I could improve the figure. Do you producers think this is viable?

 

Ideally a traveling system which could be used on thinnings etc which could be taken to where they are. Presumably moving charcoal out is a lot easier to move than the wood to the retort.

[the village idiot]

I suspect it could be one of the mark it up at a high price to give 50% off later.

 

Yesterday I picked up one of the Oxford Charcoal company 3kg boxes from Waitrose for £7.99 a quite acceptable price and much better than last year when they did small 1.25kg bags for £6 if my memory serves me correctly.

 

The supermarkets always run out way to quickly round here, just as the BBQ season starts, so there must be more market opportunities for uk charcoal.

 

I did some serious research into getting into producing charcoal last year.

 

I was quoted £1,000 per ton collected but bagged by me, last year.

 

My logic was around here it would be not so difficult to get into the shops on the grounds that uk charcoal sold out at the beginning of the season. I even tried to order in a dozen bags locally and they could not get any. Sold out.

 

I quite liked the look of the Exeter retort but couldn't square the cost vs the yield.

 

I have spent some time developing (on paper) a retort system that would be man portable, i.e. Could be taken into woodland by one person, without machinery, to where wood is felled and which is also expandable.

 

I approached an estate owner locally to prototype the system but to no avail. I think he was interested in doing it himself as he already has a large firewood business.

 

Here in the Midlands there is a lack of woodland. Or at least that I can't find.

 

I'm quite happy to buy wood in to try to commission a working system but I don't think my neighbour, who does't like wee small bonfires, would appreciate me burning 4 m3 of wood in my back garden.

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

I have read a report that a single person could, with hard work produce 1.5 tons charcoal a week. I was hoping I could improve the figure. Do you producers think this is viable?

 

Ideally a traveling system which could be used on thinnings etc which could be taken to where they are. Presumably moving charcoal out is a lot easier to move than the wood to the retort.

 

I can't go into specifics but there is more to the Oxford Charcoal/ Waitrose arrangement than meets the eye.

 

It is not a realistic price point and I doubt you will find British charcoal in any other supermarket at that price.

 

I could not produce 1.5 tonne a week with the Exeter retort. I would need two to get anywhere near that figure.

 

You may be a bit far away but you would be more than welcome to trial your kiln at the wood I manage in Suffolk. Do you have a caravan, or even better a tour bus/private jet?

 

I think you are right about the huge size of the market. If bbq charcoal prices rise a little bit more it should become a viable option for a lot more 'one man bands'. The key as always is to educate the public on the huge benefits that using British charcoal brings, not just in terms of a better product, but the knock on effects for undermanaged woodland.

[MartinN]

No private jet, no tour bus, no caravan but a bright orange Vango Force 10 tent, the height of luxury. Only wish the missus would see it that way.

 

If I can get something tried out up here that works, I would appreciate the wisdom of the V.I. for you know more than me!

 

I looked into getting something produced in heat resisting stainless steel. As we no longer produce said steel in the UK the price is 4 times what it would otherwise be. Problems finding fabricators and getting prices for said work was impossible. So change in design. Round 2.

 

If you could get a retort to the wood rather than bring the wood to the retort would that make it much more economically viable?

 

I see all the heavy equipment and time used for the processing of the wood and guess that's what kills the economics.

 

Too much time on my hands, I've just found a wildlife trust 1/4 mile from me. Lived here for 10 years didn't know it was there. I wonder if they can help?

 

My goal is to create a process requiring very little in the way of capital investment but which could offer a very good rate of return. If this can be achieved then more woodland can support more jobs at better rates.

 

I believe that the UK's second biggest sector in our trade deficit is in wood and products of. Somewhere in the region on £6 billion. Imagine if a small percentage could go back into the UK countryside instead of going abroad. As you say we are not far off the figure that the public will bear, for the charcoal at least.

[the village idiot]

No private jet, no tour bus, no caravan but a bright orange Vango Force 10 tent, the height of luxury. Only wish the missus would see it that way.

 

If I can get something tried out up here that works, I would appreciate the wisdom of the V.I. for you know more than me!

 

I looked into getting something produced in heat resisting stainless steel. As we no longer produce said steel in the UK the price is 4 times what it would otherwise be. Problems finding fabricators and getting prices for said work was impossible. So change in design. Round 2.

 

If you could get a retort to the wood rather than bring the wood to the retort would that make it much more economically viable?

 

I see all the heavy equipment and time used for the processing of the wood and guess that's what kills the economics.

 

Too much time on my hands, I've just found a wildlife trust 1/4 mile from me. Lived here for 10 years didn't know it was there. I wonder if they can help?

 

My goal is to create a process requiring very little in the way of capital investment but which could offer a very good rate of return. If this can be achieved then more woodland can support more jobs at better rates.

 

I believe that the UK's second biggest sector in our trade deficit is in wood and products of. Somewhere in the region on £6 billion. Imagine if a small percentage could go back into the UK countryside instead of going abroad. As you say we are not far off the figure that the public will bear, for the charcoal at least.

 

You definitely want to be getting your raw material wood as cheaply as possible, so I would generally recommend taking the kiln to the wood source. It does depend a bit on the scale of production. There may be a case for getting it delivered in if you are going large scale. Access into woods can often be tricky.

I like hazel for charcoal. There us lots of it about, it is cheap to process (chainsaw and portek type chainsaw bench). It is viewed as a bit of a weed by the timber guys and it makes very nice charcoal.

The nature reserve would definitely be worth approaching, but unless you are coppicing for them they will probably need paying for the wood.

The main issue I think with 'homemade' retorts is insulation. You will need to make sure it is very well insulated to achieve a predictable burn time and to save on fuel wood. Poorly insulated retorts can get through a surprising amount of fuel to get it to the self sustaining gassing phase. You also need very dry fuel wood if possible. Using wet wood for retort fodder is a thankless task.

Keep us all posted on your progress. No one has yet cracked the mobile affordable durable kiln conundrum. It will be really interesting and potentially revolutionary if you manage to pull it out of the bag!