How to crash an industry

[Khriss]

This is a very dangerous job. We are not appreciated for the risks we face. I am not happy with the current system and feel it is helping no-one. I think in-house training is the way forward, with competent types showing new workers the methods ( like the old apprenticeship days-which I still remember) Possibly with a yearly resum'e of skills learned-logged by the company.

 

I have lost track of the number of times I have shown staff how to do stuff -AFTER they have passed certification-so I KNOW it is not working.

 

I do respect the work of people who train-on here, but have met NPTC types who think it is a money-printing scheme ( and seen the results) I see no real chance of improvement in the light of the current industry handle on the situation.

 

K

[Andy Collins]

I have no doubt that some of the new guys are born to be as good if not better than their fore-runners, however my understanding of the college system is that they dont get paid for those that fail to make the grade. Therefore, are they not tempted, in these tough days of recession and performance league tables, to pass as many as possible? I'm not having a dig at any particular college, but making a generalisation.

I like the idea of a modern apprenticeship scheme, trained in the real world, in very real situations, mentored by those who have been there/done that, then periodically assessed to achieve the industry standard.

[Jason James Gairn]

I have no doubt that some of the new guys are born to be as good if not better than their fore-runners, however my understanding of the college system is that they dont get paid for those that fail to make the grade. Therefore, are they not tempted, in these tough days of recession and performance league tables, to pass as many as possible? I'm not having a dig at any particular college, but making a generalisation.

I like the idea of a modern apprenticeship scheme, trained in the real world, in very real situations, mentored by those who have been there/done that, then periodically assessed to achieve the industry standard.

 

I can't go into detail Andy, but that's my understanding of how college and NPTC works. I believe in a training and assessing environment, but both of these existing paths are flawed. I think in house has the potential for greater corruption, that would not always be the case, but the potential is massive. I know that most experienced guys have a lot to offer the rookie, and I think mentoring goes on unofficially anyway which is how it should be. Unfortunately there are experienced yet incompetent guys out there who will want to do their own mentoring too, based on years of ignoring industry developments and best practice.

Kev used to do in house training in Southend, I wonder if he's still loitering around this thread if he has any insights. Kev?

[cerneARB]

As a new guy to the industry (trying to get off the ground so to speak) i would welcome to have a mentor or an apprenticship.My NPTC acessor said "your not a tree surgeon just because you got your tickets".He is right you need that hands on expeirnce from ans with the qualified more experinced folk.

[Jason James Gairn]

As a new guy to the industry (trying to get off the ground so to speak) i would welcome to have a mentor or an apprenticship.My NPTC acessor said "your not a tree surgeon just because you got your tickets".He is right you need that hands on expeirnce from ans with the qualified more experinced folk.

 

Experience isn't a ticket to knowledge of course, I know of climbers like arbtalk member Softbankhawks, who has been climbing for 3/4 years but already knows more than most about technique, tree biology and rigging. I also know many guys who have been in the game 25 years plus who know nothing or next to nothing with the remainder being firmly anchored in the industrial revolution.

There are some really top chaps out there, we all know the sort, who's knowledge is wide and deep, their manner is conducive to the flow of knowledge, but they're few and far between.

I don't count myself as one of those guys, If i was still climbing, I would certainly try to work for them or at least shadow them. Many are very evident on this forum.

None of us are at the helm. The destiny of the industry lies in the hands of `them'. So I think there is room for some depression and despair.

[cerneARB]

toatally agree with that comment Jason.Spot on.

[Yorkshireman]

 

I’ve never once had to prove any such certs or credits to be taken seriously in a work environment….I’m pretty sure I’m not alone either, so you ought not to assume you’re speaking for everyone in such context.

 

I can well appreciate that people have to make a living, but I’d personally stop short of taking money from my fellow workers in such a way as these refresher-course-exercises:thumbdown:

 

nothing specific meant with highlights

 

I understand what you say re tickets & being asked for them

to some extent, A good company may source a lot of works from recommendation & reputation. this may negate a request for sight of cert's

but do you think it negates the need for certs ?

 

I am more than aware that the circumstances I describe above is not inclusive for all contexts within the industry.

So I assume nothing, I speak for myself , as I have & wish to have no control, over any other individual outside of those in my employ !

 

I personally arent a trainer, & therefore wont make a penny.

furthermore I personally think that this vaildation should be premisable within the industry SO @ WORK

in so far as it is done & this can be backed up/signed off .

Not just verbally stated !

 

There are no doubt trainers & assessors that do not solely perform that task and therfore will have other income streams.

Equally there are Coc holders, (relevant to our discussion) that equally dont practise their trade as much as some on here do.

 

So lets not assume that they dont need updating EH !!!

 

One voice is not be representive of all contexts.

Thats why theres consultation & again thats why I have made my points.to NPTC

As I believe that without the voice of the mass being put forward, we could end up with an unbalanced view.

 

I run my business to the best of my ability & challenge the validity of those sat on high to dictate how I should do it.

especially if the views held by those involved are disjointed.

 

rgds Iain

Edited March 3, 2009 by Yorkshireman

[RC0]

Iain, my replies are in Bold

 

nothing specific meant with highlights

 

It was clearly a conscious effort, so why include them?

 

I understand what you say re tickets & being asked for them

to some extent, A good company may source a lot of works from recommendation & reputation. this may negate a request for sight of cert's

but do you think it negates the need for certs ?

 

I never suggested it negates the need for relevant certs, just the requirement of paying money to prove a very basic level of knowledge and skill that was already paid for 5 years earlier. Being certified in a tutorial environment and being accomplished in a commercial one are two different things.

 

I am more than aware that the circumstances I describe above is not inclusive for all contexts within the industry.

So I assume nothing, I speak for myself , as I have & wish to have no control, over any other individual outside of those in my employ !

 

Please note your choice of the word ‘we’ in this comment: We should HAVE ACCREDITATION or CERTIFICATION if we want to be taken as serious PROFESSIONALS I had to assume you were talking collectively

 

I personally arent a trainer, & therefore wont make a penny.

furthermore I personally think that this vaildation should be premisable within the industry SO @ WORK

in so far as it is done & this can be backed up/signed off .

Not just verbally stated !

 

I think everyone agrees upon that, so long as it is relevant and progressive

 

There are no doubt trainers & assessors that do not solely perform that task and therfore will have other income streams.

Equally there are Coc holders, (relevant to our discussion) that equally dont practise their trade as much as some on here do.

 

So lets not assume that they dont need updating EH !!!

 

One voice is not be representive of all contexts.

Thats why theres consultation & again thats why I have made my points.to NPTC

As I believe that without the voice of the mass being put forward, we could end up with an unbalanced view.

 

I run my business to the best of my ability & challenge the validity of those sat on high to dictate how I should do it.

especially if the views held by those involved are disjointed.

 

I’ve never told you how to run your business nor can I see where anyone else has in this thread. However, what seems apparent is that the majority of contributors feel as if their time-served experience appears to count for nothing, in the fact that they are being forcibly sent back to nursery school as well as having to pay for the privilege

 

rgds Iain

 

Regards Reg

Edited March 3, 2009 by RC0

[Yorkshireman]

Iain, my replies are in Bold

 

 

 

Regards Reg

Hi Reg

my comments in bold

I Being certified in a tutorial environment and being accomplished in a commercial one are two different things

 

Agree whole heartedly

 

I had to assume you were talking collectively

 

why should we as an industry not aspire to be seen as professionals ?

 

I’ve never told you how to run your business nor can I see where anyone else has in this thread.

 

I never stated that any one on here had

I said those "sat on high" who may pontificate,

especially if their experience is not within the modern arena

 

However, what seems apparent is that the majority of contributors feel as if their time-served experience appears to count for nothing,

 

time in the college tutorial environment will never give that which the real world will

 

in the fact that they are being forcibly sent back to nursery school as well as having to pay for the privilege

 

nursery school is perhaps is a ott

But I agree , grandma shouldnt be told how to suck eggs.

 

iain

Edited March 3, 2009 by Yorkshireman

[Khriss]

Yeah- it is getting to the nub now isn't it ? Hope all those 'interested ' Bodies are looking at this.....I would stand by a mentoring / company referal -acredited scheme -actually this is how surgical and Dr's generally get on in 'their' industry.........an your life is in their hands ! Isn't it? I'm tired of this 'ship of fools' situation in our industry now- so I hope we have shaken some apples from these trees.

 

K