Welcome back to the EU!

[Steven P]

You need to meet an average voter and see just how well informed the all are!

 

 

 

 

(most are just as informed as who shouts loudest in the Daily Mail that morning)

[Tree monkey 1682]

11 hours ago, Bolt said:

Never been totally sure what Europe produces that we can’t.

 

Never been totally sure what we produce that Europe can’t.

 

Always thought trade between us and the EU was a bit pointless.

Theyve nicked cadburys, mf tractors and plant and stuff like the new defender

[tree-fancier123]

13 minutes ago, Steven P said:

You need to meet an average voter and see just how well informed the all are!

 

 

 

 

(most are just as informed as who shouts loudest in the Daily Mail that morning)

If you Steven P are in any way above average the human race is FUBAR

[Tree monkey 1682]

1 hour ago, Steven P said:

 

Partly but also in any deal the other half are also wanting the best deal they can get, a compromise is made... which given the UK is a minor party of 60 million trying to influence 600 million we were never going to get the deal that was sold to us be Johnson and Farage as the green sunny lands. Always was going to be the UK politicians going to Europe cap in hand and begging for a better option than world trade rules. As noted above, there is not much that the EU needs from the UK to be used as a bargaining chip.

 

Was fairly clear at the outset that the EU would just laugh and get what they wanted, and the UK would suffer.

 

And then we put in May as prime minister and undermined her every effort, then Johnson who is basically clueless. Shooting ourselves in the foot when our best politicians at the time are not up to the job.

 

The fact that they are open to negotiate better term for us shows better UK politicians (Sunak and Starmer) than before (Johnson, Truss and May), and years of good will built up. Any negotiations that improve our lot is better than none at all.

But wether people like it or not, we voted to leave and thats it, but I see things differently even though our heritage is Scandinavian.

I see a country that didn't like that we won the war, and for ever than a day that will be heald against us.. But they use legislation laws to control the outcome.. Quite pathetic really... Like I said if we were going to trade with them, keep it like the eec. 

And if the UK wants to go back in then do it democratically. We still need to erase the human rights crap and deport people who have come hear illegally 

[Tree monkey 1682]

1 hour ago, Big J said:

 

The issue is that in order to be part of a complex union of countries, you have to accept that sovereignty cannot be absolute. You can't expect to trade freely within a market if your rules don't adhere to those of the market with which you're trading.

 

The problem with referendums like the one held in 2016 is that the majority of voters are ill-informed or just stupid (the problem with democracy more widely, it could be argued). The British public was asked to vote on something so complex that they intricacies were largely beyond the majority of the electorate. The experts said that it would be an act of self harm. It has proven to be the case.

I'm fairly well informed compared to the average voter, but I still do not feel remotely qualified to have had the choice that I had in 2016.

Fundamentally, I believe in cooperation not competition, respect not domination, equality not power (that's a line from an outstanding song by a long forgotten British punk band called Five Knuckle) and being in a Union with our European neighbours is no bad idea in this increasingly fractious world.

 You do a big disservice to your argument, when you refer to people as ill informed or plain stupid, whether u wanted to stay in or stay out... That was democracy. 

It's like people voting labour and then wondering why things are going wrong. 

Got to be careful what you wish for... Somethings will bite you on the arse 

[Steve Bullman]

1 hour ago, Big J said:

 

The issue is that in order to be part of a complex union of countries, you have to accept that sovereignty cannot be absolute. You can't expect to trade freely within a market if your rules don't adhere to those of the market with which you're trading.

 

The problem with referendums like the one held in 2016 is that the majority of voters are ill-informed or just stupid (the problem with democracy more widely, it could be argued). The British public was asked to vote on something so complex that they intricacies were largely beyond the majority of the electorate. The experts said that it would be an act of self harm. It has proven to be the case.

I'm fairly well informed compared to the average voter, but I still do not feel remotely qualified to have had the choice that I had in 2016.

Fundamentally, I believe in cooperation not competition, respect not domination, equality not power (that's a line from an outstanding song by a long forgotten British punk band called Five Knuckle) and being in a Union with our European neighbours is no bad idea in this increasingly fractious world.

ahh the old ‘uneducated’ thing coming up again. People used that to insult people who voted for brexit, then they used the same argument against people who refused the jabs. It’s a favourite tactic of people who can’t understand why someone would do something different to them, and one of the quickest way to lose an argument as far as I’m concerned. It’s right up there with using the word ‘sheeple’. 

[Mike Hill]

21 minutes ago, Steve Bullman said:

ahh the old ‘uneducated’ thing coming up again. People used that to insult people who voted for brexit, then they used the same argument against people who refused the jabs. It’s a favourite tactic of people who can’t understand why someone would do something different to them, and one of the quickest way to lose an argument as far as I’m concerned. It’s right up there with using the word ‘sheeple’. 

You sound like you are to stupid to agree with me.

 

How can I ban you?

[GarethM]

A certain class of person do seem to think countries are unable to govern themselves without some faceless overlord peeking from behind the curtain like a puppeteer.

[Anno]

33 minutes ago, GarethM said:

A certain class of person do seem to think countries are unable to govern themselves without some faceless overlord peeking from behind the curtain like a puppeteer.

First part of that statement says everything we need to know about you and your ignorance.

[Big J]

You may raise an objection about my use of the term ill-informed, but I don't use it in the pejorative sense. It's just a statement of fact, and in some instances, being ill-informed about the minutiae of international trade relations, law and regulatory alignment is probably good for you.

 

I am no expert in any of these matters, nor do I want to be. I elect politicians who represent me, who listen to the advice and guidance of experts and academics, so that the best outcome is reached. 

 

Circumventing this process to ask an open ended question like "should we leave the EU" without any serious suggestion of what the conclusion of that process was insane. And it has harmed the UK and curtailed the opportunities for young people that were overwhelmingly in favour of remaining, but had no say in the matter owing to their age.

 

Tree Monkey 1682. You're new here. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Any notion that Germany sought to ill-treat the UK due to the outcome of WW2 is total bollocks. It's an example of lingering, post-imperial exceptionalism where some Brits seem to think that the world still revolves around the UK. It doesn't. Germany and France have sought (along with the UK for most of the intervening time) to maintain European stability in order to maintain European peace. The EU is a mechanism of stability and the UK leaving jeopardised this. The negotiations were reasonable from the EU side, given that the Tory government was coming from the "having my cake and eating it" school of international diplomacy.