Training contracts - has anyone ever tried recouping costs from training a staff member that has left?

[dumper]

On 26/01/2025 at 14:54, GarethM said:

I'll let the rest chime in but think that's illegal.

I'm sure that falls into some legal version of slavery.

Where do you get slavery from they are paid on time I paid for the tickets I paid for the time they took to complete, I have no problem if they want to leave, for a better job so long as they have turned up, worked and not spent hours on the phone,if they have earned me money they can go with the tickets 

however I’ve had more than one who I have paid for the cscs card and then dissappear. When I apply on the form the ask where to send the tickets.

[GarethM]

25 minutes ago, dumper said:

Where do you get slavery from they are paid on time I paid for the tickets I paid for the time they took to complete, I have no problem if they want to leave, for a better job so long as they have turned up, worked and not spent hours on the phone,if they have earned me money they can go with the tickets 

however I’ve had more than one who I have paid for the cscs card and then dissappear. When I apply on the form the ask where to send the tickets.

I don't know the legal terms off hand but it's effectively the same thing, as you claimed to own the certificate so it's effectively blackmail/slavery/indebted servitude holding it ransom.

 

Whilst you may have paid, same as the CSCS it's theirs as they they earned the qualifications not you.

 

You're parents may have paid for your driving lessons and test, by your logic it's not yours it's your parents.

 

Or how about explain to me they way you sell it to say an apprentice at yours ?.

Edited Monday at 18:05 by GarethM

[dumper]

2 hours ago, GarethM said:

I don't know the legal terms off hand but it's effectively the same thing, as you claimed to own the certificate so it's effectively blackmail/slavery/indebted servitude holding it ransom.

 

Whilst you may have paid, same as the CSCS it's theirs as they they earned the qualifications not you.

 

You're parents may have paid for your driving lessons and test, by your logic it's not yours it's your parents.

 

Or how about explain to me they way you sell it to say an apprentice at yours ?.

I’ve never claimed to own the certificate I simply hold it my money paid for the course my money paid to get them to the course, my money paid the time on the course, so by your logic if they work for you on your time they get all the money paid to you by your clients!

 

[GarethM]

18 minutes ago, dumper said:

I’ve never claimed to own the certificate I simply hold it my money paid for the course my money paid to get them to the course, my money paid the time on the course, so by your logic if they work for you on your time they get all the money paid to you by your clients!

So explain to me the difference when you say "I simply hold it", that's effectively blackmail pure and simple!.

 

You can't hold their certificate regardless of when and on who's time it was done, you can have a copy for your training records as that's the same for any employer who pays accordingly for skill level and for professional development and insurance purposes.

 

No they are working for you, on your job site, same reason why they get paid, poorly I can probably guess and you'll probably charge bed and board whilst they're locked in the garden shed you call their digs.

 

So if I got a certificate and I said stuff it and left, what would happen to my certificate?.

Edited Monday at 20:28 by GarethM

[krummholz]

For sure margins are very tight for most people, and forking out for training for an employee is a big outlay and a bit of a punt on that individual, despite it being a requirement under PUWER. Reluctance or nervousness to put employees through training can mean a holding pattern where workers don't see the business investing in them, which reduces their enthusiasm for and loyalty to the business, which increases the reluctance to give them training.

 

I'm sure this must have been suggested before, but one solution for smaller businesses could be a payment plan. Say you have an employee getting started and wants to get their maintenance/crosscutting/small fells, or they're looking to progress into tree climbing. You agree (with a written contract) that they will take a £20/day cut in their day rate to put that money away for their course. Both courses are the guts of £1k inclusive of VAT (so the employer could swallow the VAT if registered; lets' assume they're not if they're a very small business), so that's 50 shifts to pay for the course, which is 10 working weeks or roughly 2.5 months.

 

Employee increases their earning potential, sees some progression, employer gets more out of their employee and therefore makes more money. Both parties free to walk away after that contract comes to an end if things aren't working out.

 

Out of interest, how long would people expect or want an employee to remain with them to see a return on the investment of paying for training for them? Most clawback clauses I've seen have a sliding scale for % of cost of training provided, ending after 2 or 3 years.

 

[dumper]

On 27/01/2025 at 20:25, GarethM said:

So explain to me the difference when you say "I simply hold it", that's effectively blackmail pure and simple!.

 

You can't hold their certificate regardless of when and on who's time it was done, you can have a copy for your training records as that's the same for any employer who pays accordingly for skill level and for professional development and insurance purposes.

 

No they are working for you, on your job site, same reason why they get paid, poorly I can probably guess and you'll probably charge bed and board whilst they're locked in the garden shed you call their digs.

 

So if I got a certificate and I said stuff it and left, what would happen to my certificate?.

Two options it goes with you on good terms . Certificate was done in my time, paid for with my money, take the piss I keep it, you then have tha hassle and cost of getting a copy also your new employer has no certificate for there records

 

[GarethM]

38 minutes ago, dumper said:

Two options it goes with you on good terms . Certificate was done in my time, paid for with my money, take the piss I keep it, you then have tha hassle and cost of getting a copy also your new employer has no certificate for there records

I hope you're "Slaves" and the non existent HR department read this, but they probably already know your a big petty C and find it hard to find staff.

 

If they pay for as copy they can do with it as THEY feel fit, and yes that includes copying for a new employer as it's theirs not yours and in THEIR name.

[5thelement]

4 hours ago, dumper said:

Two options it goes with you on good terms . Certificate was done in my time, paid for with my money, take the piss I keep it, you then have tha hassle and cost of getting a copy also your new employer has no certificate for there records

 

They earned the certificate with their own ability, not you, even if you paid for it, it’s not yours, you’re not paying for a hooker.

A replacement certificate is about £50 and just an email to Lantra/City and Guilds away.

 

[5thelement]

There is a certificate claim form for all Lantra courses.
The certificate is sent or emailed directly to the candidate.

I always stress that the certificate belongs to them, not the employer, so the personal details on the form should be theirs, the candidate can then supply the employer with a copy for their records. 

[GarethM]

Just now, 5thelement said:

There is a certificate claim form for all Lantra courses.
The certificate is sent or emailed directly to the candidate.

I always stress that the certificate belongs to them, not the employer, so the personal details on the form should be theirs, the candidate can then supply the employer with a copy for their records. 

Yeap, we've all had bosses like him.

 

Most of us choose to leave eventually and vow never again to work for such people, whilst business is somewhat about being hard nosed it's also about taking it on the chin and saying I'd rather be forgotten & ignored than despised/hated and badmouthed to everyone.