Areal rescue

[bob]

Hi all, (sorry to be the H&S 'nurdy' but here we go!)

 

The requirement to have adequate arrangements at the worksite for 'aerial rescue' comes from the 'Work at Height Regs. 2005', guidance for which states:

Planning

Regulations 4 and 6(1, 2)

17 You must:

■ ensure that no work is done at height if it is safe and reasonably practicable to

do it other than at height;

■ ensure that the work is properly planned, appropriately supervised, and carried

out in as safe a way as is reasonably practicable;

■ plan for emergencies and rescue;

■ take account of the risk assessment carried out under regulation 3 of the

Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations.

 

No longer can employers rely on the emergency services to effect 'rescues' at height, the first call is with them!

 

The AA couldn't have done anything to stop this legislation being introduced, the regulations is the regulations. I see no opportunity whatsoever to apply for an 'exemption' for arboricultural works even though I acknowledge most injured climbers manage to 'self-rescue', thank goodness, but what if they didn't?

 

We only introduce requirements for ACs to comply with legilsation / good practice when circumsatnces dictate we have to, or when we believe it is correct and beneficial so to do, and many ACs are 'little guys' who have to embrace this.

 

Surely this requirement is not so restrictive it stops you from trading effectively?..I hope not, and perhaps it forces the training up of a 2nd competent climber which can only be of benefit to the firm. What could have done (restricted our operations) so was the European attempt a few years ago at banning two-stroke engines because of concerns over emmissions. The AA did represent the industry here and got the proposed legislation overturned.

 

Give us a chance 'guys', work with us for the benefit of all..!

 

Cheers and have a good weekend.

Paul

 

Good post paul

nice to have you and your knowledge to share

although i expect they will try to beat you down:sneaky2:

[Rod]

there are a few old threads along the lines of this one heres a link to one that had a poll on it

 

http://arbtalk.co.uk/forum/climbers-talk/7760-self-rescue.html

[Albedo]

My next paragraph may be a bit of a derailment so sorry hama. My first post being I hope relevant as it was my view on aerial rescue / H&S. In that its expensive to introduce it properly.

 

Whilst taking your point paul that the W@H regs are not of the AA's making, and by extension any existing regs have to be box ticked when you are dishing out AA approval.

 

My reason for mentioning the AA in my previous post is that I feel our H&S obsessed work culture is getting in the way of just working or doing the job.

 

We need a sticker on our trucks that says we do good tree work, not one that says we promise not to hurt ourselves whilst doing work to your tree which is not regulated by any industry body.

 

I am asking for a shift of emphasis within your criteria from H&S to quality of treework.

 

People are saying its difficult to enforce, but I can think of a few ways of moveing in that direction. How about arranged site visits, which are easier than surprise ones to arrange.

 

Anyway, perhaps this angle of things is for another thread

[arbogrunt]

of course, we all think 'I'd get myself out of the tree', I've self-rescued before and I know most of the guys who've cut themselves on here have done the same. What we've got to remember is, if your unconcious or in shock - your going nowhere!. Add the foul-weather we've all been working in the last few months (hypothermia a real threat to a static casualty) and aerial rescue seems a very welcome option. I know a young lad who passed his CS38 just before Xmas who rescued his brother in law after he got his foot trapped in a fork and ended up inverted - a month after his course!.

We all hate risk assessments, but if the brown stuff hits the fan, I want all that info to hand, delays like 'where are we' are going to add minutes to a situation when they cannot be spared.

I had a stinker of a tree to climb today - so I installed a second rescue line I don't often do it, but it was a slow climb and there was Ivy growing up into the upper crown. We never complain about not having to be rescued!

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Hi all, (sorry to be the H&S 'nurdy' but here we go!)

 

The requirement to have adequate arrangements at the worksite for 'aerial rescue' comes from the 'Work at Height Regs. 2005', guidance for which states:

Planning

Regulations 4 and 6(1, 2)

17 You must:

■ ensure that no work is done at height if it is safe and reasonably practicable to

do it other than at height;

■ ensure that the work is properly planned, appropriately supervised, and carried

out in as safe a way as is reasonably practicable;

■ plan for emergencies and rescue;

■ take account of the risk assessment carried out under regulation 3 of the

Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations.

 

No longer can employers rely on the emergency services to effect 'rescues' at height, the first call is with them!

 

The AA couldn't have done anything to stop this legislation being introduced, the regulations is the regulations. I see no opportunity whatsoever to apply for an 'exemption' for arboricultural works even though I acknowledge most injured climbers manage to 'self-rescue', thank goodness, but what if they didn't?

 

We only introduce requirements for ACs to comply with legilsation / good practice when circumsatnces dictate we have to, or when we believe it is correct and beneficial so to do, and many ACs are 'little guys' who have to embrace this.

 

Surely this requirement is not so restrictive it stops you from trading effectively?..I hope not, and perhaps it forces the training up of a 2nd competent climber which can only be of benefit to the firm. What could have done (restricted our operations) so was the European attempt a few years ago at banning two-stroke engines because of concerns over emmissions. The AA did represent the industry here and got the proposed legislation overturned.

 

Give us a chance 'guys', work with us for the benefit of all..!

 

Cheers and have a good weekend.

Paul

 

Thanks for that paul, its good to have a top gun here on the subject.

 

My origional points have gotten lost though.

 

My main concern is thus-

 

On a small firm, say up to four five employees in a gang, in my experiance, maybe completley unique but doubt it. 1 man usually (the most efficient/best climber, ends up doing 99.9 percent of the climbing.

 

What this does is gradualy soften the groundstff that are supposed to be relief climbers if not full on climbers. Gradualy they climb less and less until the only one doing any climbing of note is the main guy (me in this case)

 

Now i dont give a flying whatsot what ticket you got, A good climber is a good climber and its how fast he can get to me and get as down that matters to me.

 

However, how much confidance can we have in our ticketed groundies to come get us if they havent climbed above a hedge in 1 year?

 

With regards to those who seem to be concerned about the cost of an ariel rescue kit and an ariel rescue NPTC cert. Of all the things to complain about cost wise, really?

 

I would like to see a paper trail of evidance for at a minimum a practice day every three months, that way at least those not climbing regular will keep their hands in, and a climbers confidance in his crew maintained

[Danavan]

I hear it is standerd practice in Germany is to have a second line or at the very least a throw line installed as a rescue back up.

I always thought any ISA open comp I entered was much fun & informative with the rescue part of the comp as a part of it for us all to brush up on our skills in somthing that we all hope NEVER to practice for real!

Edited February 26, 2010 by Danavan

[David Humphries]

However, how much confidance can we have in our ticketed groundies to come get us if they havent climbed above a hedge in 1 year?

 

I would like to see a paper trail of evidence for at a minimum a practice day every three months, that way at least those not climbing regular will keep their hands in, and a climbers confidance in his crew maintained

 

 

Something not often or really ever thought/talked about, is the complete other end of the spectrum.

 

The older, experienced climber, who now through natural progression/career developement, employer etc, has become the rare/seldom climber but still occassionally grounds for the main climbers.

 

This person is still part of the aerial rescue matrix, there's probably quite a lot of these out there.

 

Are they still "up" for it?

 

Pride, ego and a self belief in their historical ability/skill, may be something that should be getting a serious airing & review.

 

I doubt many of these hasbeens (me included, as I'm only sans harness for research and sexy numbers these days) actually give this issue the honesty it merits.

 

A week or two back, I went aerial to join in the fun of giving one of our old Beech Vets a light "tickle", (didn't need to but it's one of our landmark Trees so didn't want to miss the oportunity to work her. Only ever been up her to put fires out at the top of the chimney that is her trunk).........I digress, anyhows, found this to be a right proper lung burner, and bailed out after an hour or so having ticked the box, and as there was still a second climber (younger/fitter) up there with me, they finished that section of canopy.

 

The point being, I'm nowhere near as Tree fit as I once was, and realising this, try to gear towards not being the main rescuer climber if at all possible.

 

Could I rescue someone down?

 

I hope and plan, to never find out.

 

Keep safe and realistic Brothers & Sisters

 

D

 

 

 

.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

As David points out being "tree fit" is very different to being "legaly fit"

 

I have a lot of confidence in my ability (thats not always a good thing) but as i get older, I am becoming more "self aware" of mortality! On an average day I dont really worry too much about these things, but with the prolonged wet and icy weather we have had this year Ive given this more thought.

 

There is a fine line that we have to work with in this business, that line is the difference between working hard enough to remain "tree fit" and not working so hard that we work too long in a fatigued state.

 

This is something we need to think about as much if not more than any other aspect, fatigue will kill you, faster than any other fault on your part. fatigue will be what makes you cut corners, fail to control the saw as well as you should etc etc etc

 

Davids point is a very valid one and exactly what i am talking about, i dont doubt that a great many of us are working under similar circumstances. Not all due to the age of our groundies, but ability, experience etc etc

 

Its all too easy to tick all the boxes and "do the right things" but how many of you take this "that" seriously that you go further?

 

Does anyone have any views on this aspect?

 

Would anyone care to be bold and admit, be truthfull about their feelings on this subject and talk about the "weak links" in the/their ariel rescue chain?

 

How do the freelancers feel regarding groundies they may not know? Do you take the trouble to find out what they can do? if they are that good, why are you there?

[Mesterh]

Something not often or really ever thought/talked about, is the complete other end of the spectrum.

 

The older, experienced climber, who now through natural progression/career developement, employer etc, has become the rare/seldom climber but still occassionally grounds for the main climbers.

 

This person is still part of the aerial rescue matrix, there's probably quite a lot of these out there.

 

Are they still "up" for it?

 

Pride, ego and a self belief in their historical ability/skill, may be something that should be getting a serious airing & review.

 

I doubt many of these hasbeens (me included, as I'm only sans harness for research and sexy numbers these days) actually give this issue the honesty it merits.

 

A week or two back, I went aerial to join in the fun of giving one of our old Beech Vets a light "tickle", (didn't need to but it's one of our landmark Trees so didn't want to miss the oportunity to work her. Only ever been up her to put fires out at the top of the chimney that is her trunk).........I digress, anyhows, found this to be a right proper lung burner, and bailed out after an hour or so having ticked the box, and as there was still a second climber (younger/fitter) up there with me, they finished that section of canopy.

 

The point being, I'm nowhere near as Tree fit as I once was, and realising this, try to gear towards not being the main rescuer climber if at all possible.

 

Could I rescue someone down?

 

I hope and plan, to never find out.

 

Keep safe and realistic Brothers & Sisters

 

D

 

 

 

.

 

 

I doubt it.

 

From my own experience if I've been away from climbing for just even a few weeks the first climb back definitely isnt the quickest or most efficient:blushing:

 

If you need rescuing you want a 'hero' climber on the deck to come and get you. You know the ones, they nearly kill themselves to scale a tree in 10 seconds flat. Might not be any good at tree work but speed is everything to them:001_smile:

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

It isnt any good dying trying to save somone!

 

lets hope the ambulance was called before the "hero" attempted his radical ascent!