What will an ash woodland look like in 10 years time?

[sandspider]

That was vaguely what I thought it might be, but assumed I'd be wrong! Maybe I'll take some cuttings of my ash trees 😁

53 minutes ago, openspaceman said:

I have never done it and would happily climb these trees to get some cutting material but apparently this is not viewed as safe so they shoot a branch off, presumably a number 5 shot or heavier and a full choke barrel.

 

They are coming next week but I am not invited.

 

[Stere]

Interesting about shooting down the ash cuttings, wonder how they will be propergated?

 

Living Ash Project Trial Results 21/22 - Propagating ash from cuttings - Living Ash Project

LIVINGASHPROJECT.ORG.UK

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Isabel Negri, from Royal Botanic Gardens Kew, UK Conservation Projects Officer presents the results of the

 

Shoots and leaves: the shotgun scientist who hunts moving trees | Trees and forests | The Guardian

WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM

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As forests evolve in the face of climate crisis, some surprising methods are being used to track how species migrate

 

[scbk]

10 hours ago, 5lab said:

We weren't really looking to buy a woods (I always kinda wanted one, but wasn't seriously looking) - the reason we took this seriously is that its within walking distance of our house. The real value is somewhere for our 2 (currently small) boys to grow up playing in, and if its mostly going to be ash and falling branches, it doesn't feel like this meets that need.

Not saying that buying this wood, or any woods is the best financial decision; But one way to look at it would be if you plant some faster growing trees now the kids will have some beautiful woodland in years to come 

 

My little 2 and a half year old has a small orchard in her name.....

Edited January 31 by scbk

[lux]

10 hours ago, 5lab said:

no access inside. To the northern edge is a field and within that field (not close to the land) is a bridleway, but not within the distance a tree could fall

 

Its an ancient woodland so the trees are all sorts of ages. I imagine a whole bunch of them grew after the '87 storm, but its all a mix of sizes.

 

I'm not knowledgeable enough to identify what all the trees are in winter, but have access to the forest management plan which shows the various ratios per sector of the woods - most of them ash is way above 80%, there's a whole load of other things (Sycamore, beech, etc) mixed in in small proportions

 

the SSSI is mostly (90%) grassland - the woods were designated because they helped provide a breeding area for birds. So the fact its Ash is (I don't think) particularly relevent. That said, SSSI will make it really hard to figure out what's allowed/necessary. 

 

We weren't really looking to buy a woods (I always kinda wanted one, but wasn't seriously looking) - the reason we took this seriously is that its within walking distance of our house. The real value is somewhere for our 2 (currently small) boys to grow up playing in, and if its mostly going to be ash and falling branches, it doesn't feel like this meets that need.

 

Appreciate all the help

Nothing you have detailed sounds like it would be a big issue to overcome 

 

Im a stones throw from the SDNP and have the same issue with ADB in part of our woodland (also designated ancient). Im extracting the ADB and started another business producing lump wood charcoal from it as a bit of hobby / side hustle. That took off well last year so will be adding a second kiln this spring. 

I secured a grant to protect the future of the woods. We have put in 900 new trees this week with the grant covering 90% of the cost on a self plant basis. A variety of 11 native species with full planting plan and survey free of charge carried out during the grant application . 

 

The SDNP is a big place but if its not far from me and you do end up purchasing it id be happy to take a look at the site and suggest some options. 

 

 

[Amarus]

12 hours ago, 5lab said:

- most of them ash is way above 80%, there's a whole load of other things (Sycamore, beech, etc) mixed in in small proportions

+ 

The real value is somewhere for our 2 (currently small) boys to grow up playing in

If you read the previously mentioned research on resistance and survival rates what you are looking at is less than 5% or 1% of the 80% to be alive within a matter of years. Would you be really happy to let your children play in an area that is full dead ash, playfully known as widow makers?

The alternative is to fell/clear this ~80% and replant with something else; your children will get the experience watching it to regrow.

 

The problem with that in the first place:

 

12 hours ago, 5lab said:

the SSSI is mostly (90%) grassland - the woods were designated because they helped provide a breeding area for birds. So the fact its Ash is (I don't think) particularly relevent. That said, SSSI will make it really hard to figure out what's allowed/necessary. 

It is very relevant to NE, I already linked the guidance. NE will not give you any other licences than thinning as you don't have any H&S related targets (as you alluded to it) therefore they will not allow you to do a lot as the mythical resistant ash might reside in your wood. 

 

To sum up, you are looking at a dying ash woodland (80%) with no heavy machinery access on a steep slope that is a SSSI. 

 

You need to have some deep pockets to turn this into something else. 

 

There are a lot of good points amongst the replies overshadowed by some really unbelievable answers. As I mentioned before, talk to real professionals.

 

Most agents do offer a free initial visit, speak to one of them in your area: 

Advisor Directory | woodlandadvisors

WWW.WOODLANDADVISORSGROUP.CO.UK

 

PS the attached is looking at some ash in the Cotswolds. Can you spot the problem?

Edited January 31 by Amarus
Added image

[Mr. Ed]

It does sound like a challenging project. Good luck with your decision making process! 
 

Here’s something I didn’t know:  from the paper that Amarus referenced, with reference to your location.  
 

<<. In terms of environmental conditions, wetter sites have been observed to have higher mortality, although in the UK ash growing on chalk (very dry) has also shown high mortality. >>

 

In our own mixed woodland (SW Ireland so not notably dry but most of our land is quite well drained) our management plan for the oldest area (in terms of established trees) is to do absolutely nothing beyond keeping the main track open. It’s an area of gullies and there are beautiful tall elegant mature Ashes growing from the bottoms of the gullies (one of the most beautiful things I know is the sight of these trees dancing in the wind in a summer gale, with their neighbouring big old oaks looking on in benign amusement like elderly relatives at a ball). After the heartbreak of realising this magical place was going to change we are resigned and will watch and see. They are lasting longer than younger trees (we felled several thousand 12 year old Ash) but after each of this winter’s gales the floor is more littered with branches and quite big boughs. We hope the trees will “monolith” themselves naturally and remain standing as vertical habitat piles but if they fall we’ll leave them there. We’ve had to get tree surgeons in to remove the big ashes beside the main access road to our house and I’m glad we did it before they were completely dead for it made the work far easier - they were still nice and Ashy and make fine timber and firewood.  
 

At this stage I wouldn’t be particularly anxious about a danger from falling trees (though we don’t go out in the woods in big gales, not least because the noise is terrifying). I’d be more frightened by the big old willows who randomly drop big boughs on the ground. 

 

 

 

[Stere]

Quote

Buying a SSSI is no game and technically NE could force you to manage the woodland towards favourable recovering status no matter the costs to you.

 

So  does being an SSSI mean you  may have to do stuff  thats  enforced?

 

Say they tell you or recommend you to do something impratical and expense and you don't do anything what happens then?

 

 

Looking here all the enforcment actions are from doing something wrong none cover not doing something recommended apart from the controling injurious  weeds ones?

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/63ef6fdee90e077bb3d7af0d/annual-enforcement-report-2018-to-2022.pdf

 

 

 

Quote

<<. In terms of environmental conditions, wetter sites have been observed to have higher mortality, although in the UK ash growing on chalk (very dry) has also shown high mortality. >>

 

Makes sense a  stressed plant form either drought ot water logging is weaker. Waterlogging also makes apple canker worse etc.

 

I had the idea  any extremes  nationally or regionally in climate either  drought/or very wet winters  would probably acelerate ADB.

Edited February 1 by Stere

[Amarus]

3 hours ago, Stere said:

 

So  does being an SSSI mean you  may have to do stuff  thats  enforced?

 

Say they tell you or recommend you to do something impratical and expense and you don't do anything what happens then?

 

 

Looking here all the enforcment actions are from doing something wrong none cover not doing something recommended apart from the controling injurious  weeds ones?

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/63ef6fdee90e077bb3d7af0d/annual-enforcement-report-2018-to-2022.pdf

 

I did say technically. See 

Sites of special scientific interest: managing your land - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

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When you need consent for a proposed operation or management change on land in a SSSI and how to apply.

I have not yet heard anyone being actually taken for a ride as such but the powers are there. If NE want to make an example of someone they do have the means. Given how the media focuses on green issues and knowing some of the zealots in NE personally this risk would be too much for me on top of the ash problems but others might have different appetite.

[5lab]

thanks all. I went back to the woods today armed with some videos on identifying ash dieback and it seems its in full swing - there's young growth coming out of the trunks on maybe half the trees, and a significant proportion have almost no discernable "crown" - just a tall trunk with a few large branches at the top. Given all that, and the advice on here, we've decided not to go ahead with it for now

[5lab]

Few photos of the site below