Am I allowed to Teach one of my boys to climb before putting them on cs38 and 39 ?

[Jamie Jones]

Big Minefield you are walking into here.  

Here is where I see the legal position:

1) If you want to give the lad an intro to climbing and some training pre his 'Tree Climbing and Aerial Rescue' Course & Qualifications, outside of working hours. Then there is no issue with this. This is because this is is not being done in a commercial sphere.. IE You can go rock climbing with no training or experience because it is for pleasure.
However, you should be aware that if something happens, and you are giving instruction and it is deemed that you have failed to protect the student. Then you will get the book thrown at you. From a legal point of view you should be qualified to teach the subject.
If you did it in the work place during his working day, you would have to adhere to all the Health & Safety in the Work Place Laws and Regulations. 

2) For your lad to do the 'Safe Use of a Chainsaw from a Rope & Harness' training & qualification, it is a prerequisite that he already has the 'Tree Climbing and Aerial Rescue' Qualifications first.
So for you to give him personal 'Chainsaw from a Rope & Harness' training with out the Climbing and Rescue qualification, I would say that it is a big NO, NO.  
There is nothing to stop you teaching him the cuts on the ground.

3) But what I don't understand is why you would even try and teach the  'Chainsaw from a Rope & Harness' before he has the 'Tree Climbing and Aerial Rescue Qualifications' because it is not something I would do or be comfortable doing.

4) Put this in a work place context: 
You State: 'Is someone allowed to climb using a saw if he is supervised at all times ?'.
a) First of all technically you can't under H&S law have someone climbing commercially without the correct qualification because you would be breaching the 'Working at Height Regulations' (WAHR) and the 'Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations' (PUWER).
b) Add to that the use of a chainsaw/possibly even a Silky would be further breached of both of the above regulations.

5) If anything went wrong in the slightest  manner the HSE would screw you totally in court and you probably would never get insured again.

6) You would also be in breach of your insurance contract of cover.

7) If you gave some pre-course training for the climbing and rescue, and that course is booked. then you most probably would be ok (but check with your insurance company). But they can't commercially climb.

8).  Once your lad has his climbing and rescue qualification then, I would see no reason why you could not give some safely orchestrated training. But you would certainly have to be able to prove that they was doing cuts in a very safe manner in a very simple circumstance situations (ie no pressure). If you was expecting them to slowly work through a whole commercial tree job then you would have an issue in that it could be argued that they are working commercially untrained. So you would really need to somehow be up there giving guidance while maintaining a safe distance.

9) But regardless I would having taken the above advice concentrate on one step at a time. Check what your position is with insurance company, Do a full risk assessment with control measures prior to doing anything.

10) But if you are going to teach anything. Remember it is all 'Two Rope / Double Rope climbing that he will need to learn.

[Kimosabi]

5 hours ago, Patrick goulding said:

That’s how I started my old man taught me to climb and do the job before I even went and did my climbing courses. I think it’s a good thing because I think some people once they have tried it might think it’s to much like hard work and say it’s not for them. And then they have wasted there money 💴 I think a lot of people see what we do and think I can do that watching someone who has done it for years and makes it look easy but don’t really realise how strenuous the job is. It’s not for everyone. 👍 

Yep some people like the the idea of it, they see all the shiny gear but when it comes to it they are not cut out for the work, throw him in and let him get on with it.

[Mick Dempsey]

23 minutes ago, Jamie Jones said:

Big Minefield you are walking into here.

10) But if you are going to teach anything. Remember it is all 'Two Rope / Double Rope climbing that he will need to learn.

You’ll never get out of bed if you worry too much about stuff.

Give him a taste of the job, send him up some easy stuff when there’s time, keeping an eye on him of course.

Single line and a flip line is enough, putting him up on a double rope system will leave him looking like a fly trapped in a spiders web and put him off for life, let the instructors waste their time with that bollocks.

Once he’s qualified he can drop it and start learning.

 

[Topper]

I would recommend the OP speaks to an NPTC assessor for accurate advice and guidance 👍

 

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Topper

[gobbypunk]

A long time ago I looked into teaching Chainsaws with my mate and as far as we could find out and this was from where I did my ticket if you have the ticket yourself you can teach one to one but things may have changed 

[GarethM]

Why not just take him for an afternoon at a indoor climbing place, as a climber I guess you're qualified enough to be the instructor.

 

Safer, warmer and atleast he gets a taste for heights before spending money on gear and training.

[5thelement]

The main issue I can see here is teaching him all your bad habits, it’s not like your going to send him up a half dead tree with some dodgy climbing kit is it?

It’s easier to train a novice than to un-train someone with bad technique.
I have trained loads of guys in the woods over the years, medium/large/wind blown trees, who says you have to be taught by a certificated Instructor?

Just download the assessment schedules and go through them with him, go through a few anchor/knot/ascender/changeover options and get him in the saddle, even better if you are with him in the tee.
The more practice he gets the easier his assessments will be.  

If your not sure what your teaching him then don’t and book a course, he would still find the course easier after some climbing practice.