Problems and issues this industry faces and how to deal with them.

[Retired Climber]

4 minutes ago, Mick Dempsey said:

Well, I can only imagine that they do like I do when I take the car to a garage, a  chipper to a repair shop or any other trade in to do a job.

You sort of guess, using experience and a rationale.

Then you add 30% cos life is like that.

 

 

Do you think the 'rationale' may have anything to do with what they perceive an arb to be worth, per day, per hour etc? 

 

You know what I'm getting at. I can't believe you still think I'm wrong, having had a chance to have a ponder about it, but you still seem to just dance around the points, rather than moving towards an actual answer. 

 

Anyway ,maybe us discussing it is pointless, so I'll simply summarise my point. 

In a nutshell, one of the reasons that arb ( especially as an employee) is very poorly paid, is because the general public think it's a fairly basic, manual labour kind of occupation, and would struggle with the cognitive dissonance created by thinking they were paying their arb more than (what they would term) 'professionals'. 

[Mick Dempsey]

Change the word ‘worth’ for ‘cost’ 

[Stere]

 

 

 

Think many often  underestimate costs massively though and assume more profit on  jobs than the reality. Im not sure many bother to actually think that deeply about costs/proft etc?

 

If they do they probably think if you make more than £15 per hr profit they are overpaying you, as they class it as "low status" job.

[Retired Climber]

5 minutes ago, Stere said:

 

 

 

 

 

If they do they probably think if you make more than £15 per hr profit they are overpaying you, as they class it as "low status" job.

Thank you. That is exactly the point, and much more concisely put than I have managed. 

[Mick Dempsey]

9 minutes ago, Retired Climber said:

Do you think the 'rationale' may have anything to do with what they perceive an arb to be worth, per day, per hour etc? 

 

You know what I'm getting at. I can't believe you still think I'm wrong, having had a chance to have a ponder about it, but you still seem to just dance around the points, rather than moving towards an actual answer. 

 

Anyway ,maybe us discussing it is pointless, so I'll simply summarise my point. 

In a nutshell, one of the reasons that arb ( especially as an employee) is very poorly paid, is because the general public think it's a fairly basic, manual labour kind of occupation, and would struggle with the cognitive dissonance created by thinking they were paying their arb more than (what they would term) 'professionals'. 

I have 27 years experience of standing in front of clients trying to secure tree work, I have listened to hundreds or even thousands of clients trying to get the price down, sometimes succeeding sometimes not.

You can listen to what I have to say, or you can apply you’re own algorithms or pre conceived prejudices about rich people.

No skin off my nose either way.

 

[AHPP]

I think arb is often poorly paid (for employees, freelancers etc) because it’s often quite pleasant so they’ll take less. Building sites are hellholes filled with morons and arseholes with clipboards. Arb sites to me are gardens, tea and cake on tap or site clearances where you can enjoy the industrialist’s satisfaction of making a big difference quickly with machines etc. I’ve found the majority of arb types pleasant enough and an above average number of them above averagely interesting. Like many, I’m not in it to get rich so these pleasures are worth it to me. 
 

As for why the amount end clients are charged is low compared to builders etc, I don’t know whether it is. With small firms, the boss is

often on site working so enjoys the tea and cake and the pleasures of the job. Some people don’t care about that so want more money instead. Likewise bigger firms who are just sending men to addresses on a screen are more on the numbers.
I’m beginning to feel like I’m rambling on this second half but hopefully someone is getting something from it. I price very little work for end clients and always go in high and safe when I do. The joys of eating the icing off the cake as Mike said earlier in this thread.

Edited August 22, 2022 by AHPP

[Retired Climber]

14 minutes ago, Mick Dempsey said:

I have 27 years experience of standing in front of clients trying to secure tree work, I have listened to hundreds or even thousands of clients trying to get the price down, sometimes succeeding sometimes not.

You can listen to what I have to say, or you can apply you’re own algorithms or pre conceived prejudices about rich people.

No skin off my nose either way.

 

I'm not saying you are not experienced, I'm saying you don't understand the underlying psychology and behavioural economics principles behind what's going on. I'm trying to explain them in a way that may be useful for you and other arbs if they genuinely want to discuss some of the problems and solutions in the industry. 

 

I'm very open to debate, but your declaration that I'm wrong, kind of put me off. I honestly thought you'd have come back today, having had a ponder, and we'd have had a better conversation about it. 

 

I can't say this without sounding like an a- hole, but I'll say it anyway. I know stuff that nobody else on this forum knows, and I thought I could be useful. I wasn't the greatest climber, and actually I probably got into arb to prove to myself that I could do a proper man's job. I was the skinny kid at school, and wasn't exactly the athletic type. I have little value here when the conversation is of a technical climbing nature, but if we are talking content for your website, marketing, understanding clients, improving conversion rates, persuading staff to work harder or anything of that nature, my knowledge and experience will be unparalleled on this forum (or actually, any forum).

 

Haha, I told you i'd sound like an a-hole. 

 

[Retired Climber]

3 minutes ago, AHPP said:

I think arb is often poorly paid (for employees, freelancers etc) because it’s often quite pleasant so they’ll take less. Building sites are hellholes filled with morons and arseholes with clipboards. Arb sites to me are gardens, tea and cake on tap or site clearances where you can enjoy the industrialist’s satisfaction of making a big difference quickly with machines etc. I’ve found the majority of arb types pleasant enough and an above average number of them above averagely interesting. Like many, I’m not in it to get rich so these pleasures are worth it to me. 
 

As for why the amount end clients are charged is low compared to builders etc, I don’t know whether it is. With small firms, the boss is

often on site working so enjoys the tea and cake and the pleasures of the job. Some people don’t care about that so want more money instead. Likewise bigger firms who are just sending men to addresses on a screen are more on the numbers.
I’m beginning to feel like I’m rambling on this second half but hopefully someone is getting something from it. I price very little work for end clients and always go in high and safe when I do. The joys of eating the icing off the cake as that article said the other day. 

An excellent point. The world of veterinary care suffers in the same way. Vets, and even more so nurses, are paid very poorly as so many people want to do the job. 

As a kid I loved nothing more than battling my way through undergrowth and climbing trees, then people paid me to battle through undergrowth and climb their trees. What a perfect job. 

[Mick Dempsey]

Why is Arb poorly paid? 

10 minutes ago, Retired Climber said:

I'm not saying you are not experienced, I'm saying you don't understand the underlying psychology and behavioural economics principles behind what's going on. I'm trying to explain them in a way that may be useful for you and other arbs if they genuinely want to discuss some of the problems and solutions in the industry. 

 

I'm very open to debate, but your declaration that I'm wrong, kind of put me off. I honestly thought you'd have come back today, having had a ponder, and we'd have had a better conversation about it. 

 

I can't say this without sounding like an a- hole, but I'll say it anyway. I know stuff that nobody else on this forum knows, and I thought I could be useful. I wasn't the greatest climber, and actually I probably got into arb to prove to myself that I could do a proper man's job. I was the skinny kid at school, and wasn't exactly the athletic type. I have little value here when the conversation is of a technical climbing nature, but if we are talking content for your website, marketing, understanding clients, improving conversion rates, persuading staff to work harder or anything of that nature, my knowledge and experience will be unparalleled on this forum (or actually, any forum).

 

Haha, I told you i'd sound like an a-hole. 

 

You weren’t completely wrong, just putting too much store in your theory.

Better now:)?
 

Ok, so give us a little glimpse of the magic, throw us a bone so that we can understand a bit better the psychology of it.

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Mick Dempsey

[AHPP]

18 minutes ago, Retired Climber said:

An excellent point. The world of veterinary care suffers in the same way. Vets, and even more so nurses, are paid very poorly as so many people want to do the job. 

As a kid I loved nothing more than battling my way through undergrowth and climbing trees, then people paid me to battle through undergrowth and climb their trees. What a perfect job. 

It’s just a web of competing subjective values, like the rest of life. Some people like an environment where paperwork and compliance for compliance’s sake makes the money and workers are stalked for contractual transgressions and the opportunity to invoke penalty clauses. Some people like a joint at lunchtime while cutting hedges and going home on a bicycle. People usually find the right enough people to deal with on this spectrum and their little corner of the world works while other people’s works for them. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by AHPP