Getting rid of ivy!!

[JSN]

11 hours ago, CambridgeJC said:

 

Lets go back to basics. Most high winds occur during winter. Certainly in temporate regions. And the trees which populate extreme windy regions are guess what?  Pine forests. Wow! And these are guess what?  Evergreens. Wow! So what did they do to evolve to cope?  Guess what?  Roots that held them fast and strong in the face of high winds!  Wow!  Clever little devils these pine trees!  And many also developed spiral fibrous trunk growth structures. Wow! This creates strength against wind stress and leverage. Clever stuff eh?  Wow!  And not content with that under the years of exposure to prevailing winds they even develop growth tendency to lean away from the wind above ground. Pretty basic stuff here. But they counterbalance the consistent  strain by root structures on the opposite side to anchor themselves firmly into the ground against the anticipated wind stress. Not a lot of people know that. (Michael Caine may have said that🤣).  But in warmer climes broadleaved trees grow in forests and cultivated in isolation and are deciduous in the main. They have evolved with shallower root systems compatible with luxurious plant growth soils and increasing rainfall and ultimately rainforest conditions. So when the wind blows their shallower root structures are less able to cope. Some are able to evolve genetically and phenotypically to protect others at the borders of a forest in windy areas (like Dartmoor for example). Just look at the isolated copses there. Always shaped with low growth on windwards edge and rising away to leeward. Same for individual trees there. Clever little souls. Much to be learned from trees. 
But ivy changes things. As they have found to their cost in the USA. Where it is declared an invasive species. 
It tends not to grow on evergreen pines which shield them from light source and have a wonderful time when deciduous trees lose their leaves. Smart eh?
It grows exactly the same here in the UK when left to its own devices. No difference at all. But we choose to call it non-invasive. Because it was not introduced from abroad!!! Whose clever idea was that??? Hmmm!
Now lets get serious. 
How do we want our woodlands and hedgerows to develop in future? Covered with evergreen ivy growth to the detriment of other species? Torn down any time the wind blows hard? 
If so then carry on as we are. Do nothing. 
I have images of Hedera helix growing as juvenile form up quite high with no sign of development into mature reproductive growth. And loads of ivy covered tree trunks not acting as sails. 
The chance we have just now is getting data on WHETHER OR NOT ivy is a threat to our trees and hedgerows. 
So…please help collect data on the proportion of downed deciduous trees that are loaded up OR NOT with ivy growth which has contributed to the fall in this week’s high winds. That will provide useful information and allow a mature and informed discussion on the subject. 
OK? Just forget the science and other distractions. Focus on understanding the question and collecting some basic data. Unscientific this may be but at least its a start. 
Or maybe I’m just unhinged 😂😂😂

Wtaf - this is some scene of patronising condescending weapons grade bull shit.  
10 pages ago you didn’t know about juvenile and mature leaves and now this nonsense. 
I also find it highly duplicitous that you require references / qualifications / experience for everyone else’s comments but provide non yourself. 
Wow indeed. 

[CambridgeJC]

9 minutes ago, JSN said:

Wtaf - this is some scene of patronising condescending weapons grade bull shit.  
10 pages ago you didn’t know about juvenile and mature leaves and now this nonsense. 
I also find it highly duplicitous that you require references / qualifications / experience for everyone else’s comments but provide non yourself. 
Wow indeed. 

No. But I have learned a lot about this subject and the most significant finding is just how aggressive some of you arborists are and resistant to a simple request for information. You encourage me to continue to get at the facts as far as they exist. It id a real challenge but you guys really do have a grass roots knowledge which is valuable. But maybe try to remain open to this bullshit as you call it. Perhaps some of it is not so off the wall. 

[gary112]

17 minutes ago, CambridgeJC said:

No. But I have learned a lot about this subject and the most significant finding is just how aggressive some of you arborists are and resistant to a simple request for information. You encourage me to continue to get at the facts as far as they exist. It id a real challenge but you guys really do have a grass roots knowledge which is valuable. But maybe try to remain open to this bullshit as you call it. Perhaps some of it is not so off the wall. 

To be honest i think it,s got to the stage of nobody,s really interested now,in the subject or you(just saying like)

[CambridgeJC]

11 minutes ago, gary112 said:

To be honest i think it,s got to the stage of nobody,s really interested now,in the subject or you(just saying like)

If that’s true then this is the last we will hear from anyone. Actually this has been an enlightening experience so that’s fine by me. 

[JSN]

37 minutes ago, CambridgeJC said:

maybe try to remain open to this bullshit as you call it. Perhaps some of it is not so off the wall. 

I quite like a plucky amateur but you appear to lack a fundamental understanding of tree biology and bio-mechanics. 
To bring you up to speed, can I suggest that you read, 

Trees: Their natural history - Thomas, and 

Stupsi introduces the tree - Mattheck.  Also, If you have the academic chops for it, The body language of trees - Mattheck & Breoler, and Applied tree biology - Hirons & Thomas.  
“The notion that Ivy kills the tree it grows on can be traced back to Theophrastus in the fourth century BC, without anyone stopping to think whether it can be true!” O. Rackham.  Maybe try his book, Trees and woodlands of the British landscape, time your on. 

[john87]

15 minutes ago, JSN said:

I quite like a plucky amateur but you appear to lack a fundamental understanding of tree biology and bio-mechanics. 
To bring you up to speed, can I suggest that you read, 

Trees: Their natural history - Thomas, and 

Stupsi introduces the tree - Mattheck.  Also, If you have the academic chops for it, The body language of trees - Mattheck & Breoler, and Applied tree biology - Hirons & Thomas.  
“The notion that Ivy kills the tree it grows on can be traced back to Theophrastus in the fourth century BC, without anyone stopping to think whether it can be true!” O. Rackham.  Maybe try his book, Trees and woodlands of the British landscape, time your on. 

Well, i stopped to think if it is true, and it most certainly is.. If ivy will destroy a building, what you think it will do to a tree?? Anything that stops the sunlight getting to a tree [and harbours damp etc] will obviously damage the tree and promote decay etc.

 

Ivy is a parasite like any other.. Anyone going to tell me that worms do not hurt their hosts [animal or human]

 

john..

[nepia]

21 minutes ago, john87 said:

Ivy is a parasite like any other.

Nope.  Not a parasite at all.  It merely uses a tree as a substrate.

Mistletoe is a parasite

[CambridgeJC]

20 minutes ago, john87 said:

Well, i stopped to think if it is true, and it most certainly is.. If ivy will destroy a building, what you think it will do to a tree?? Anything that stops the sunlight getting to a tree [and harbours damp etc] will obviously damage the tree and promote decay etc.

 

Ivy is a parasite like any other.. Anyone going to tell me that worms do not hurt their hosts [animal or human]

 

john..

Great. At last someone who is prepared to stop and think. Using his brain. And not simply accepting stuff that he has learned at college or from books. Someone who has eyes to see and uses them. And a brain to think and uses it. 
How many of you there can say that? 
Common sense prevailing at last???

Ivy doesn’t kill trees. That’s the bullshit. 

[gary112]

8 hours ago, john87 said:

Well, i stopped to think if it is true, and it most certainly is.. If ivy will destroy a building, what you think it will do to a tree?? Anything that stops the sunlight getting to a tree [and harbours damp etc] will obviously damage the tree and promote decay etc.

 

Ivy is a parasite like any other.. Anyone going to tell me that worms do not hurt their hosts [animal or human]

 

john..

John ,ivy is not a parasitic plant,you are wrong,check before you write 

[CambridgeJC]

3 minutes ago, CambridgeJC said:

Great. At last someone who is prepared to stop and think. Using his brain. And not simply accepting stuff that he has learned at college or from books. Someone who has eyes to see and uses them. And a brain to think and uses it. 
How many of you there can say that? 
Common sense prevailing at last???

Ivy doesn’t kill trees. That’s the bullshit. 

Before someone takes this out of context I am NOT saying ivy kills all trees…just those on which it creates a sail for the wind to bring it down. And I fully accept not all those are healthy trees. But more and more will succumb to ivy canopy growth as time goes on.