Employed or S/employed

[arbogrunt]

'Be better of as a rent boy, can work on me own then'

 

 

nah, that must be a bigger pain in the arse than treework...and KY costs more than 2-stroke!

[Mozza]

You dont really have a choice mate, If he soley works for you full time hours, Using your gear, You have to take him on, I know its been a grey area for years but its they are really clamping down it, If you try and blag it pal, you could find yourself in alot of trouble, A guy i used to work for years ago is getting hammerd for this now, I was cards in with him but He had S/E people work for him full time for years and its now (years later) he's getting his pants pulled down for it big time!!

[Ian C]

'Be better of as a rent boy, can work on me own then'

 

 

nah, that must be a bigger pain in the arse than treework...and KY costs more than 2-stroke!

 

KY nah axel grease fromt tractor does it.

[Ian C]

You dont really have a choice mate, If he soley works for you full time hours, Using your gear, You have to take him on, I know its been a grey area for years but its they are really clamping down it, If you try and blag it pal, you could find yourself in alot of trouble, A guy i used to work for years ago is getting hammerd for this now, I was cards in with him but He had S/E people work for him full time for years and its now (years later) he's getting his pants pulled down for it big time!!

 

Yeah i know Liam, your right in what you say and thats what i dont want.

[DN22 Gardening]

i'm in the same position, nearly

my groundie, (also called dean) gets c/i/hand. (cough cough)

obviously can't go on.

 

theres a guy in our pub runs a wages company, had a chat with him n for £5-00 per pay period he'll sort everything out, i.e PAYE, both sets of NI contributions etc.

 

obviously if i paid him monthly it'd be better, but he'll not wear that..lol

[Mozza]

Yeah i know Liam, your right in what you say and thats what i dont want.

 

Might be abit of a ball ache setting it up properly pal but at least its all cosher then

[Rupe]

Not according to the HMRC guy, it is nothing to do with hours, i can have a subby for 40 hours a week provided they have there own kit, insurance and go do the job, where the downfall is is that i provide everything so he is deemed to be an employee. Most full time scaffolders are s/e, its a thorny subject. My mate has a garage and he has 2 machanics s/e been working there 8 years, they provide there own spanners but he provides every thing else,

 

Be better of as a rent boy, can work on me own then.

 

 

Sure, but that is then a genuine sub contractor, i.e. another company/person like yourself doign tree work. What you have is a labourer workign for you.

 

My groundie is self employed, and he works for others firms and he tells me whne he's available and how much he wants for each job (or thats what it says on his invoices) so I use him per job not per hour. He's not insured, you all know waht I think of that, insuranc eto keep the HMRC happy is not right IMO, and as he's not employing anyone he doesn't legally need any insurance.

 

Its a grey area, but its one that has been exploited in our trade for many years. If you require him to come in X amount of days each week then that is employment so unless you can find a way to exploit the regs then you should employ him. It is a hassle for one bloke though, I did it once and it wasn't worth it.

 

Scaffolfders are possibly working under the CIS scheme. I don't know for sure though. And mechanics is a whole other situatiuon. Even employed ones have to provide their own tools so that on its own doesn't make some one self employed. Even some full time tree surgeons provide there own tools.

[Ian C]

Sure, but that is then a genuine sub contractor, i.e. another company/person like yourself doign tree work. What you have is a labourer workign for you.

 

My groundie is self employed, and he works for others firms and he tells me whne he's available and how much he wants for each job (or thats what it says on his invoices) so I use him per job not per hour. He's not insured, you all know waht I think of that, insuranc eto keep the HMRC happy is not right IMO, and as he's not employing anyone he doesn't legally need any insurance.

 

Its a grey area, but its one that has been exploited in our trade for many years. If you require him to come in X amount of days each week then that is employment so unless you can find a way to exploit the regs then you should employ him. It is a hassle for one bloke though, I did it once and it wasn't worth it.

 

Scaffolfders are possibly working under the CIS scheme. I don't know for sure though. And mechanics is a whole other situatiuon. Even employed ones have to provide their own tools so that on its own doesn't make some one self employed. Even some full time tree surgeons provide there own tools.

 

Dean dont work for other firms, so i guess im bang to rights, i can do without the hassle of PAYE etc but i also dont want gettin tugged by HMRC. scaffs work under the CIS scheme but like you mentioned RUPE i bet many realy should be employed in the true sense.

[Rupe]

Yes, many should be employed. The HMRC see it as exploitation if you don't employ them. I'm not suggesting you are exploiting him but many are being exploited. There was the lad on here who was getting paid nothing or one day a week at best but had to be available everyday just in case his "boss" felt like working. Thats exploitation.

 

Paye is not that bad. If you have guaranteed work for the guy then it could be ok. Everyone bemoans paying holidays etc but you calculate that into the day rate anyway.

 

So for example if you pay him 70 a day now self employed and he pays his own tax and gets nothing for holidays and he does 47 weeks for you thats £16450 that your are forking out.

 

You PAYE him a salary of £16450 paid over 52 weeks of the year thats £316 a week gross. you then give him 270 ish of that and the balance piad in tax.

 

You are, in theory, no worse off and he is less exploited!

 

Only cost to you is hassle, a little bit of employer contribution to NI, but the killer is keeping him busy on wet days or shortage of work etc.

[Quickthorn]

Why don't you try the HMRC employment status indicator tool? I'm pretty sure your mate should be employed, from what you say, but you could change the answers on the ESI tool until you get the right result, then change your arrangements to suit.

 

Things that make someone self employed:

 

using own tools;

choice of when/how the work is done;

a share in the risk.

 

The last one might be worth looking at..pay him a % of the job, perhaps, so if it goes well he wins, and if it goes wrong he loses - just like the boss.

 

If you have to go the PAYE route, I'd look into getting a proper written contract sorted, including a grievance procedure, to protect yourself. If you don't have a contract of employment, the power is with the employee..

Edited January 22, 2010 by Quickthorn