Can I do some extra freelance work for the company I work for?

[eggsarascal]

The government website seems to think there is still freelancers.

 

Contract types and employer responsibilities: Freelancers, consultants and contractors - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

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Employers' responsibilities for different contract types: full-time, part-time, fixed term, agency workers, consultants...

 

[Paddy1000111]

I wish I could leave the UK this year with the amount of bollocks that's going on. 

 

My advice was unclear to the OP I guess. It would have been better if I said "Ask your employer to check his insurance and make sure it covers subcontractors/freelancers as not all policies do. Also make sure you're getting your just reward out of it, especially if you have to pay insurance as you aren't getting pension, sick etc etc. The difference in price is more than you think" 

[Dan Maynard]

I'm not with you Paddy. From what I've read the IR35 rules changing in 2017 knocked a lot of people in the public sector who were wrongly defining themselves outside IR35 in order to save tax, the change in 2021 is not actually changing the definition of who is inside or outside but shifts the responsibility for defining it in the private sector.

I've been through the IR35 calculator. According to that, I am working outside IR35 so deemed not an employee of the company I freelance to, so I send them an invoice and look after my own tax. I don't think it's right that freelancing doesn't exist, it is a very particular set of circumstances though.

This chap being offered SE by his employer sounds dodgy af to me. It seems almost certain he'd be inside IR35 anyway so no point taxwise.

And I hold insurance for the jobs where I am invoicing the customer. I don't hold it for jobs where the contract with the customer is invoiced by the arb firm.

The need for employers liability insurance is quite different to the tax status, you need to hold employers liability even if volunteers are helping you for no pay and even if the other workers are self employed and have their own insurance policies.

[Paddy1000111]

4 minutes ago, eggsarascal said:

The government website seems to think there is still freelancers.

 

Contract types and employer responsibilities: Freelancers, consultants and contractors - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

---

Employers' responsibilities for different contract types: full-time, part-time, fixed term, agency workers, consultants...

 

But it's all the same thing. A "freelancer" is no different to a contractor. They are all a subcontracted company no matter what name you give them. It's down to the work contract as to if they supply tools or whatever.  We haven't banned the word but a Freelancer of old, i.e. someone who works for you in every sense of the word and you just pay them more and they deal with their taxes isn't a thing. 

[Paddy1000111]

2 minutes ago, Dan Maynard said:

I'm not with you Paddy. From what I've read the IR35 rules changing in 2017 knocked a lot of people in the public sector who were wrongly defining themselves outside IR35 in order to save tax, the change in 2021 is not actually changing the definition of who is inside or outside but shifts the responsibility for defining it in the private sector.

I've been through the IR35 calculator. According to that, I am working outside IR35 so deemed not an employee of the company I freelance to, so I send them an invoice and look after my own tax. I don't think it's right that freelancing doesn't exist, it is a very particular set of circumstances though.

This chap being offered SE by his employer sounds dodgy af to me. It seems almost certain he'd be inside IR35 anyway so no point taxwise.

And I hold insurance for the jobs where I am invoicing the customer. I don't hold it for jobs where the contract with the customer is invoiced by the arb firm.

The need for employers liability insurance is quite different to the tax status, you need to hold employers liability even if volunteers are helping you for no pay and even if the other workers are self employed and have their own insurance policies.

Ir35 is a very complicated beast. I could discuss it for hours and hours. In it's basic form: If you are working for a big arb company week after week with their guys and you are an employee who is paid differently to the rest of them then this is illegal, you are a disguised employee.  

The reason freelancing doesn't really exist is it's basically a way to have employees that pay little to no tax. HMRC want their pound of flesh. In their eyes, if you need more guys to do the same work you are currently doing you employ more staff, not get in some extras that you pay in a different way. 

 

My point with insurance is to check your documents and read the fine print. I'm not saying that if your insurance states that it covers subcontractors that it's lying. I was talking to a local tree guy the other day, he has had the same insurance company for the last 5 years, he renewed it recently and found out that the insurance he had only covered him for trees up to 25ft. Who has actually sat down and read their insurance policy? 

[eggsarascal]

1 minute ago, Paddy1000111 said:

But it's all the same thing. A "freelancer" is no different to a contractor. They are all a subcontracted company no matter what name you give them. It's down to the work contract as to if they supply tools or whatever.  We haven't banned the word but a Freelancer of old, i.e. someone who works for you in every sense of the word and you just pay them more and they deal with their taxes isn't a thing. 

Yes, what I did say earlier was, most here work freelance for a few different company's, again earlier I said that calculator assumes you are working for the same company, like an employee! i.e. They really are employees/employers avoiding tax. Genuine freelancers  move about between company's and mix in some of their own work.

[Paddy1000111]

6 minutes ago, eggsarascal said:

Yes, what I did say earlier was, most here work freelance for a few different company's, again earlier I said that calculator assumes you are working for the same company, like an employee! i.e. They really are employees/employers avoiding tax. Genuine freelancers  move about between company's and mix in some of their own work.

This is the shady ground and one of the reasons the reforms were moved from 2019-2020 originally anyway. There's no time limits and it's about the type of work. If you're doing all the same work and acting like an employee you are under IR35 according to the rules. Obviously this doesn't work because like you say, you're working for different people all the time so you are a freelancer in all senses of the word and not a disguised employee but this isn't the first time HMRC have bought out some bullshit ruling that doesn't fit everyone. 

[AHPP]

Paddy. Have you told your wife about all this?

[Paddy1000111]

2 minutes ago, AHPP said:

Paddy. Have you told your wife about all this?

I did, now she's the Ex... 😂😂

[Steve Bullman]

36 minutes ago, Paddy1000111 said:

I did, now she's the Ex... 😂😂

That'll learn her