Panorama and the PRC

[Acerforestry]

I don't usually post anything to do with politics / current affairs, but I'm sure a few forum members saw Panorama last night, I did and i'm going to make an exception. So, the general theme being China's notably slow response to notifying any other nation of the Covid threat, and how the government dealt with anyone who dared to mention the possibility of a pandemic threat, ie., they either disappeared or were bumped off (same thing, really). In a bit of a huff over the whole thing today I was pondering just how much stuff in my house / garage / car is made in the PRC - and it's a disturbing number of items. Clothes / textiles, obviously electrical and electronic  goods, kitchen items - the list goes on and on. I understand more than a little of how the global economy works, and yes there's a lot of people in China who produce things to a high standard at low cost. But if one good thing needs to come out of all this Covid drama it's that we badly need to see a shift here; I want to start buying more goods made in Europe or America, regardless of it costs more. It was a relief just to look at the label on a vintage Husvarna in the lockup stating "Made in Sweden"

[Commando]

Fully agree.  We need to hit them hard where it hurts.  It's obscene that we are propping up a regime that has such a shocking human rights record, is polluting the environmental on an unbelievable scale, AND is clearly lining it's self up to be the only world superpower (God help us!!).  The West is walking into the trap....disguised as globalism

[Haironyourchest]

Mad thing is, even though Chinese made is so much cheaper, their stuff is even cheaper still if bought at source. Take a look on Ali Express and see what a 800kg Chinese Tifor clone costs before it's jacked up by middle men. $£€ 50.00. Buy one here and it's 150. Still way cheaper than the Luxumbourg made real thing at 800. But then you can get a Brano made-in-Czech for 400.

A 1.5 ton German made Yale lever chain hoist is north of 500. The Chinese one is 80. Probably 20 direct from China.

One winders if made-in-the-west prices are truely representative or if they are also inflated? Ok, the examples I've mentioned are not trying to compete with the PRC versions, different market.

Actually Italy produces some pretty good product, at reasonable prices. I bought a really low end pedestrians tracked dumper from Italy, frame and gearbox made in Italy, motor a Taiwanese Honda, tracks American. Twice the price of the equivalent Chinese one, but most probably more than twice as good, considering ease of use, reliability, longevity etc. Not having the Chinese one, I can't compare, but you can get an idea just by looking at the engineering design choices....

[SpringhallTreeCare]

[Bunzena]

Chinese labour is cheap and the Chinese government invests it's huge export surplus in the country.

 

China can make things very cheaply - but also has the capability to make very high quality too [check to see where your iPhone is made].  They've focussed their efforts on building an export economy on technology and basic engineering products.  Just wait until they move up the value-added food chain and start making decent cars, aircraft, pharmaceuticals and get into finance.

 

Consumers tend to think about price first and other factors second.  If we don't want China to dominate the second half of the 21st Century - we need to act differently now.  

 

As for China being the world's-worst when it comes to human rights - that's debatable.  Their record is far from good - but take a look at Saudi Arabia, North Korea and others.

 

Is Huawei 'spying on us'?  Probably?  Possibly?  No-one really knows.  It does make me laugh when I think about how short our memories are - and that the US was caught 'hacking' Angela Merkel's Blackberry a few years ago.  Everybody is at it.

 

The Chinese are different from us culturally.  'Saving face' is important. 

 

That might explain why they seemed to cover-up Covid 19 at the start.  But it might not.

 

I have a friend who sits on the ONS panel here in the UK.  It's a 'closed' group - so what they discuss isn't always published.  At a meeting a month or so ago the discussion was around the stats they have suggesting Covid deaths might be 50%+ higher than those being quoted by the Government.

 

Is that a cover up?

 

As I get older - I get more sceptical.  especially of so-called experts.  Instead, when I hear something I like to take my time and, often, try and see an alternative point of view.  Try and get the facts and then weigh-up both [or more] opinions.

 

 

[eggsarascal]

PRC, that's got to be the biggest lie ever. Look at what they are doing to the Uighurs, rounding them up in concentration camps, harvesting their body parts, it was only a few weeks ago 13 tons of human hair (for wig making) was seized on its way to the USA.

 

The Donald put sanctions on the nasty barstewards because he can put pressure on them. They look at us for what we are... A tiny little island in the middle of the drink.

 

While we all still want cheap PRC will thrive, time for a rethink, I can't see it happening mind.

Edited July 29, 2020 by eggsarascal

[Acerforestry]

I knew it could be bad over there but didn't realize organ harvesting was on the agenda. Christ, what next

[eggsarascal]

The PRC are a brutally wicked bunch, they made it legal to organ harvest back in the 1980's.

 

I've read that the regime force people to consent to having their organs harvested.

 

'We' want cheap so we turn a blind eye.

[little_p]

On 28/07/2020 at 21:59, Acerforestry said:

 In a bit of a huff over the whole thing today I was pondering just how much stuff in my house / garage / car is made in the PRC - and it's a disturbing number of items. Clothes / textiles, obviously electrical and electronic  goods, kitchen items - the list goes on and on. I understand more than a little of how the global economy works, and yes there's a lot of people in China who produce things to a high standard at low cost. But if one good thing needs to come out of all this Covid drama it's that we badly need to see a shift here; I want to start buying more goods made in Europe or America, regardless of it costs more. It was a relief just to look at the label on a vintage Husvarna in the lockup stating "Made in Sweden"

Several years ago after I struggled to get parts for my Chinese made trail bike (Loncin) I made the conscious decision not to buy Chinese.
I started to research a replacement bike and looked at the Spanish Gas-Gas. The motor was made in China. The Austrian KTM also had Chinese parts. I came to the conclusion that the best that you can do now is buy European ASSEMBLIED stuff.
Since then I have bought an Italian assembled Case tractor, a German assembled Ford car, farm machinery from Poland. IW trailer from Wales. But as for consumer electronics, forget it. My Korean Samsung TV and phone all made in China. Same with my American Dell laptop.
At the start of Covid a mate of was waiting on parts for his JCB. You can guess where they were coming from.

I almost pulled the trigger on buying a Rock Venom log splitter until I found out it was mostly Chinese.
But here begs the question; do I buy the infinetly better designed Chinese product or buy something like a traditionally designed product just because it is British. Does it help British companies like Oxdale to innovate if we just buy based on where they are built?

I'm not an anti-China zealot. I've been lucky enough to spend some time in China and it is a complete and utter eye-opener. Their entrepreneurial spirit and ability to get stuff on a grand scale is just mind-bogling. They work hard too. I rent a house out close to a good University. The Chinese students are up at the crack of dawn, the very same time that the British students are coming home from the night before.

At some point the tide might turn. Some of this manufacturing is going to switch to even lower cost countries; Cambodia, Indonesia and heaven knows where. From what I saw the Chinese do like European stuff, particularly if it brings some kudos. The Chinese freeways were full of Mercedes, BMW, VW and the Union Jack seemed to be 'in fashion' over there.
There are some things that they aren't (currently) very good at producing, particularly in the food and drink sector. Lamb, beef, cheese, whiskey all spring to mind.

[Steve Bullman]

On 29/07/2020 at 13:03, Acerforestry said:

I knew it could be bad over there but didn't realize organ harvesting was on the agenda. Christ, what next

Well they are harvesting organs in the uk now also. They at least wait till we are dead though so I guess that’s one good thing