Workable alternative to U.K. two climbing systems

[Rich Rule]

17 minutes ago, Mick Dempsey said:

Well you can do that, just as you can educate people not to drive too fast past schools

Putting traffic calming measures ensures compliance.

And people who are speeding past schools are often branded as stupid or idiots.

 

How is that any different from someone who knows they shouldn’t be using a saw at neck height?  

 

Anyway, this is supposed to be about 2 ropes.  
 

I will watch from the sidelines as two rope working won’t affect me or how I go about work on a daily basis.  

[Mick Dempsey]

26 minutes ago, Konstantly said:

If his points are not of value to some that is their opinion. 

 

We can only make assumptions on a person and their online persona from their quotes unfortunately.

 

He may have been a stella climber back in his day. His posts may suggest otherwise unfortunately.

 

I expect that their are a number of people who can articulate a wonderful working ethos online hear but in reality...? That's the nature of the online world. 

 

Up to him to fight his corner if he wants too. 

 

He may just not give a shit about other opinions on his past and present. 

If we all let people get under our skin we would be forever in conflict. That can be just as bad not having an opinion.

I’m not sure he’s interested in a pissing contest.

 

I have always had the impression that he knows his stuff, his potted CV earlier in this thread shows that he knows the industry from top to bottom.

 

Anyway, I’m off, flap away about two ropes unhindered.

[The avantgardener]

1 hour ago, scotspine1 said:

 

The points he makes relating to climbing carry almost no weight because he’s not climbed as a full time climber since 2004.

 

His thoughts on climbing now - in 2020 are just that - thoughts, formed in the abstract, attempting to draw on his climbing experience from 16 years ago where he undoubtedly climbed on a single line, yet now he pontificates in the merits of twin rope climbing. 

 

He attempted to lecture full time professional climbers and talk to them as if they were ignorant and unaware of critical aspects of the job they carry out on a daily basis. 

 

This is why people are justified in questioning his credibility. 

 

 

, 

If full time professional climbers here in the U.K. where anywhere near as good/safe as they think they are, we wouldn’t be in this two rope situation in the first place.

[Rich Rule]

No, if we had people experienced in the field, making of the rules we have to abide by, we wouldn’t be in this situation in the first place.

[The avantgardener]

5 minutes ago, Rich Rule said:

No, if we had people experienced in the field, making of the rules we have to abide by, we wouldn’t be in this situation in the first place.

Nonsense. The accident statistics speak for themselves, that’s why action is being taken. I recently worked with a young guy who had a serious arterial bleed after cutting his left arm, 15 hour operation, nerves removed from his foot to make his hand work again. The A&E nurse told him that she sees at least 10-15 injured Arb guys a week with serious lacerations, these are fully PPE’d guys so not domestic users, this is ONE hospital.

[Rich Rule]

There you go.  How did not having 2 ropes cause arterial bleeding?

 

I was referring to the rule makers who have said 2 ropes should be the norm.  
 

As a few people have said, myself included we are supposed to be discussing the 2 ropes and not the banning of top handles.

Back to what I have said all along on this issues, education. Is the key point.  There are other factors of course, commercial pressures, people being expected to do a job when the don’t have the experience.

 

We could go on.

 

[josharb87]

21 minutes ago, The avantgardener said:

Nonsense. The accident statistics speak for themselves, that’s why action is being taken. I recently worked with a young guy who had a serious arterial bleed after cutting his left arm, 15 hour operation, nerves removed from his foot to make his hand work again. The A&E nurse told him that she sees at least 10-15 injured Arb guys a week with serious lacerations, these are fully PPE’d guys so not domestic users, this is ONE hospital.

Bullsh#t.

 

That would mean each year, 143, 000 arbs are admitted to one of the UK's type 1 Emergency departments. Nearly 1% of all A&E patients! 

 

My sis works in A&E and has never mentioned seeing an arb. 

 

Plenty of gardeners though.....

[Konstantly]

12 minutes ago, Rich Rule said:

There you go.  How did not having 2 ropes cause arterial bleeding?

 

I was referring to the rule makers who have said 2 ropes should be the norm.  
 

As a few people have said, myself included we are supposed to be discussing the 2 ropes and not the banning of top handles.

Back to what I have said all along on this issues, education. Is the key point.  There are other factors of course, commercial pressures, people being expected to do a job when the don’t have the experience.

 

We could go on.

 

#troll 

 

Not you.. 

 

[Stubby]

Gravity was stronger back then .  I blame global warming ...

[Ian C]

  Risk assessment is about reasonableness. It's not about assessing out every last little risk, that's impossible.  

I've worked in arboriculture for over 40 years, 25 as a climber starting in 1979. I've known two people who fell from height, none who had to be rescued or self-rescue. I would suggest if you're able to self-rescue you're able to manage your ropes, ergo, your bleed out argument falls at the first hurdle. If you couldn't manage your ropes then you're not self-rescuing and someone has to come and get you. And if those who fell because they had no stop-knot, or because they cut themselves out of a tree had had second lines they wouldn't have fallen, which is why the HSE are saying it's two rope working. And it's not being proposed it's right here right now and what you should be doing.

 

What is considered safe, or just normal practice,  changes through time. Back in the late seveties it was fairly normal to free climb the tree before tying in when you got to the top. Would anyone countenance that now. MEWPs were unheard of, but now are common place and used to avoid climbing wherever practical. It used to be the case that you wouldn't use a strop to aid work positioning as it reduced your ability to get out of the way if something bad was happening. Yet now it's considered good practice because it improves stability in the tree and, as you point out, helps prevent chainsaw injuries and deaths, invariably caused by the use of top-handled saws.

 

The Arb Assoc has many faults but you will be pleased to know that they were vocal in defence of top-handled saws when they were to be banned. Personally I'd say defending one of the biggest killers in arboriculture is defending the indefensible. But I never liked or used top-handled saws. I guess those who did like and use them and were killed by them would also take a different view now, as will their families and friends.

 

On a cheerier note, the AA worked hard so that full body harnesses weren't introduced for all tree work. So you can thank them for being able to use whatever sit harness you have.

 

The HSE will look at the figures and conclude that falls from height are the major problem in arb work, and stopping it their primary concern. They won't wait for a few millennia whilst Darwinian evolution takes place, they'll act now. Next up will be the next biggest cause of injuries and deaths. So it's back to the future and the banning of top-handled saws.

 

In 25 years time people will be wondering why two rope working wasn't always the way it was done, and why climbers were allowed to kill themselves on a regular basis with top-handled saws.

 

 

  

You have a lot to say about this went you haven’t climbed for god knows how many years! Another desk jockey telling working men how to do there job, you should work for the HSE or the AA am sure you could be really useful [emoji849]

 

I won’t be doing it and my employees will have the option!