Two Rope Working Consultation

[Pete Mctree]

On 13/10/2019 at 18:02, Jake Andrews said:

 

Yes some were open but I also had it in some conifers and a cedar that needed deadwooding.

Back up system one:


This was my first go. I only needed to go up and down in this willow removal so was very over kill. Needed a Petzl ASAP if I’m honest but I don’t like the £170 price tag! I’ve been using a CT Roll’n’lock as a progress capture but it’s not to great on coming down.

 

Hi Jake,

 

I commend you on your proactive approach to working with a twin rope systems, but your picture shows two issues potentially. Did both your climbing systems have independent structurally sound anchor points? As there looks to be very little divergence of the ropes. Secondly as there is a 2nd climber present, how did this affect anchor point selection and would the 4 independent anchor points even be possible?

 

More importantly, you mention the use of a cam device as used in the IRATA world such as the ASAP. If your using such a device in a rope access configuration, have you and your staff had training to effect a rescue if your primary system fails? I think it would be classed as a long rope rescue & would be beyond the skill set of a lot of arbs currently. Someone may correct me on this, but I think you need to be a level ll IRATA operative to become a rescue climber even, with proven technical ability and catalogued hours. Have a look at the video

 

 

[carlos]

jake is the rope runner CE certified?, 

[Jake Andrews]

Can I ask what’s the point in confirming to WAH regs if straight away you are using equipment that is not fit for purpose?
equipment compatibility and conformity is equally important in the WAH hierarchy and PPE in work equipment regs.
 
 
i applaud your enthusiasm but we need to be opposing this as it is blatantly not workable to continue to enforce industrial regs upon our industry.

My point was just to try working with two systems for this particular tree. I don’t climb on my runner any more and do not have a second RW although I have now borrowed one from another climber. There is know way that with this large a step in our industry we are going to get it right 1st time. This is why I’m starting the ball rolling now. Please ignore the runner as it was used as a back up and not my primary system straight away.

I am not currently trying to comply with the W@H regs, I’m am just trying to see how it can be practically implemented into our work.

[Jake Andrews]

There is enough guidance in the PPE regs and LOLER on equipment selection.
and no offence to Jake who is a competent climber I would just like to climb with him and see how he can implement two rope working into everyday working scenarios and as to why two ropes is a safer method?
 
what ever way you look at it we are to blame for what is to come so we just need to improve how we operate and show the HSE that we are professional and that our methods of working are safe and appropriate.

Marc just to confirm, I do not believe 2 rope working is a safer method in every scenario. However, if we are forced to go down this route then I would like 2 ropes to be a benefit to me and not a hinderance. This to me will only come with patience and practice.

[Jake Andrews]

Hi Jake,
 
I commend you on your proactive approach to working with a twin rope systems, but your picture shows two issues potentially. Did both your climbing systems have independent structurally sound anchor points? As there looks to be very little divergence of the ropes. Secondly as there is a 2nd climber present, how did this affect anchor point selection and would the 4 independent anchor points even be possible?
 
More importantly, you mention the use of a cam device as used in the IRATA world such as the ASAP. If your using such a device in a rope access configuration, have you and your staff had training to effect a rescue if your primary system fails? I think it would be classed as a long rope rescue & would be beyond the skill set of a lot of arbs currently. Someone may correct me on this, but I think you need to be a level ll IRATA operative to become a rescue climber even, with proven technical ability and catalogued hours. Have a look at the video
 
 

Hi Pete.
Yes I had two anchor points.
Anchor 1 was selected as my working line - hitchclimber
Anchor two was my safety line and was selected approx 500-600mm below anchor 1 which was bomb proof - Runner.
I selected anchor 1 based on what I would normally anchor too for this tree but had to go slightly lower due to the second climber. Therefore my safety line being lower but on the same stem is a different, independent anchor point IMO. Otherwise if we need two separate stems to anchor to every tree then we can totally write off conifers.

The second climber was secured higher than me for this tree. He is our apprentice and he did most of the work, I just went up to give a hand on the back stem and also to give pointers in the tree (training). In reality and normal practice this particular tree would have been worked by one climber however I do take your point with not enough anchors for two climbers. More trees will need to be worked by 1 climber only due to lack of anchors.

As for the ASAP question. No we are not IRATA trained which will likely be the case for 98% of arborists across the country. Unfortunately I believe this will involve more training especially for rescue scenarios. If some one falls onto a cammed device then they are going to need lifting and many current training providers do not cover this in aerial rescue (I know I wasn’t). So in short, the majority of the arb industry in the uk will need to up skill and gain a higher qualification to comply particularly for rope rescue.

What intrigues me is if IRATA will come out with an arborist qualification. This will then allow them to sell it world wide?????

It’s a potential money maker for them.

[Jake Andrews]

jake is the rope runner CE certified?, 

See above reply. The runner is merely to see what working with two ropes is like and not to work on. I have since borrowed another rw.

[Mike Hill]

I see the two rope technique to be the beginning of the end of Climbing as we know it.

 

This is going to encumber climbers to the point where MEWPS will be faster on alot of jobs.

 

The less gear a Climber has,the better they generally are.

[Pete Mctree]

1 hour ago, Jake Andrews said:

 

Hi Pete.
Yes I had two anchor points.
Anchor 1 was selected as my working line - hitchclimber
Anchor two was my safety line and was selected approx 500-600mm below anchor 1 which was bomb proof - Runner.
I selected anchor 1 based on what I would normally anchor too for this tree but had to go slightly lower due to the second climber. Therefore my safety line being lower but on the same stem is a different, independent anchor point IMO. Otherwise if we need two separate stems to anchor to every tree then we can totally write off conifers.

So in effect you did not have separate anchor points as both of them were in proximity on the same stem. All you did was back up your already rated climbing system.

The second climber was secured higher than me for this tree. He is our apprentice and he did most of the work, I just went up to give a hand on the back stem and also to give pointers in the tree (training). In reality and normal practice this particular tree would have been worked by one climber however I do take your point with not enough anchors for two climbers. More trees will need to be worked by 1 climber only due to lack of anchors.
Agreed
As for the ASAP question. No we are not IRATA trained which will likely be the case for 98% of arborists across the country.

I would recommend that you investigate there use carefully then - I presume you are using a fall arrest harness with your cam device attached either sternally or dorsaly 

Unfortunately I believe this will involve more training especially for rescue scenarios. If some one falls onto a cammed device then they are going to need lifting and many current training providers do not cover this in aerial rescue (I know I wasn’t). So in short, the majority of the arb industry in the uk will need to up skill and gain a higher qualification to comply particularly for rope rescue.
 The time taken to rescue someone off a cammed device is long and involved- if there was a time critical injury you are adding time & complexity - both of which are going to increase fatalities which more than negates any positive attributes of the backup system 

I see zero benefits still in two rope systems on the majority of trees, and your experimentation is just highlighting the short comings I think.

What intrigues me is if IRATA will come out with an arborist qualification. This will then allow them to sell it world wide?????

 

I have put my opinions in bold within you text ?

 

 

 

[Jake Andrews]

I have put my opinions in bold within you text [emoji106]
 
 
 

My thoughts on separate anchors differ from yours. Aren’t rope access technicians separately anchored but on the same wall some times? I have used separate anchors in my example above, albeit on the same stem. My experience has led me to select said anchors that I believe to be robust enough to take on the task at hand. In this situation I am backing up gear failure. I do share your opinion that I Am on an already rated system so why should it fail? But again....... aren’t rope access technicians on a rated system that is backed up by another rated system? I wonder where this rule has come from backing up an already rated system, I’d love to know.

Just to confirm, I am not using a cammed device. I can just see it as the forward to comply with the regs on simple up/down trees like a spruce. For decurrent growth pattern trees (spreading), I think having two separate climbing systems would be better for redirecting and better work position.

I totally agree that a rescue scenario would take longer and I’m afraid I have no answer for you yet on that. Having said that, using two systems to gain a better work position can mitigate against such injuries. Work positioning is everything as we know.

I am not totally for this stance and not overly keen on using two ropes for every situation. I am keen however on trying to get my head around using two system as the HSE’s decision is not going to change.

[Pete Mctree]

8 minutes ago, Jake Andrews said:

I am not totally for this stance and not overly keen on using two ropes for every situation. I am keen however on trying to get my head around using two system as the HSE’s decision is not going to change.

 

This entire thread is a part of a review and is viewed by the HSE as part of there decision making process on how to  implement any changes they see fit. 

I will save any consideration on implementing it necessary (hopefully never)