Two Rope Working Consultation

[Jamie Jones]

2 minutes ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

ALL (if I may) - please be aware that whilst this thread has focused on the climbing aspect of working at height (in trees) compliance with the W@H Regs., and the associated industry ICoP, involves planning and decision making following the 'hierarchy principles' and you must have a robust procedure for this which justifies, for instance, "why" a MEWP is not used for the job (the Table on p.26 of the ICoP is very useful / informative here.)

 

HSE, and previous prosecutions / accident investigations, have clearly adopted a "benefit of hindsight" approach were a climber has fallen out of a tree and been injured, where the tree was MEWP accessible, asking "why" the MEWP wasn't used and that's why you need to have a robust decision making procedure in place.

 

Thanks for reading..

Paul

 

PS the ICoP is viewable here , and can be downloaded as a pdf. file (30mb)

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EDITION.PAGESUITE-PROFESSIONAL.CO.UK

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Guidance Notes - Industry Code of Practice for Arboriculture – Tree Work at Height

...and can now be purchased hard copy - see

Arboricultural Association - Book Shop

WWW.TREES.ORG.UK

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A source of publications, guidance notes and leaflets for arboriculturists. Competitively priced available to members...

 

On the point of 'Why you have not used a MEWP'....
Would a justifiable reason be I am qualified to climb, but I am not qualified on all MEWP options and the use of a chainsaw from a MEWP?

As there is only so many course/qualifications you can afford to undertake... I am waiting on those courses and saving to undertake them.

I therefore did not want to undertake an activity (using a MEWP) that I was not trained.
 

[Khriss]

@Jamie Jones  a good point,  MEWP work is totally different from climbing Arb  (  I struggle with mewps ) so would ordinarily not choose them unless a line of street tree lifts or similar.  K

Edited August 28, 2020 by Khriss
( or am doing my gutters at weekend ?)

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

Hi Jamie and Khriss, thanks for your posts.

 

In a nutshell "no", simplistically get someone who is MEWP trained / qualified to do the work (said acknowledging it's not that simple in reality BUT HSE would likely take the view point it was.)

 

BTW you do not need, or at least "shouldn't need", the chainsaw from a MEWP qual if you're chainsaw in a tree qualified...you just need a 'MEWP ticket' plus familiarization training with the MEWP selected.

 

Regards,

Paul

[Khriss]

So Paul, my understanding is if yr stood in a MEWP,  yr groundsaw  ticket use is acceptable ? ( not top handled ) K

Edited August 28, 2020 by Khriss

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

6 minutes ago, Khriss said:

So Paul, my understanding is if yr stood in a MEWP,  yr groundsaw  ticket use is acceptable ? ( not top handled ) K

Hi Khriss, to date HSE have only conceded this point referring to the 'aerial chainsaw ticket' not the ground based one . Further, and generally, use of the top-handled saw from a MEWP is often frowned upon but provided you have the qualification, and use it 'two-handed' only it is acceptable (a bit greyer here.)

 

Regards,

Paul

[Khriss]

Cheers Paul,  my thinking being if yr groundsaw felling competent,  with MEWP ticket, then rear handled saw plus silky will give useable aerial work whilst climber is otherwise occupied  - against the costing of it all.  MEWP tickets are cheaper than climbers tickets. Reiterating I am still no fan of mewps ?  K

Edited August 28, 2020 by Khriss
( or too fat to get yr CS38 ?)

[Marc Lewis]

Hi Jamie and Khriss, thanks for your posts.
 
In a nutshell "no", simplistically get someone who is MEWP trained / qualified to do the work (said acknowledging it's not that simple in reality BUT HSE would likely take the view point it was.)
 
BTW you do not need, or at least "shouldn't need", the chainsaw from a MEWP qual if you're chainsaw in a tree qualified...you just need a 'MEWP ticket' plus familiarization training with the MEWP selected.
 
Regards,
Paul

Really? If an incident were to happen from said activities and you were not trained to use a saw from a bucket/mewp, it would not be a problem?

[Khriss]

26 minutes ago, Marc Lewis said:

6 hours ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

Hi Jamie and Khriss, thanks for your posts.
 
In a nutshell "no", simplistically get someone who is MEWP trained / qualified to do the work (said acknowledging it's not that simple in reality BUT HSE would likely take the view point it was.)
 
BTW you do not need, or at least "shouldn't need", the chainsaw from a MEWP qual if you're chainsaw in a tree qualified...you just need a 'MEWP ticket' plus familiarization training with the MEWP selected.
 
Regards,
Paul

Read more  

Really? If an incident were to happen from said activities and you were not trained to use a saw from a bucket/mewp, it would not be a problem?

Is why I ask . Yr doing same tension compression cuts with saw from bucket as you do on ground . You pass a Mewp ticket . Yr doing aerial cutting . K

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

29 minutes ago, Marc Lewis said:

6 hours ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

Hi Jamie and Khriss, thanks for your posts.
 
In a nutshell "no", simplistically get someone who is MEWP trained / qualified to do the work (said acknowledging it's not that simple in reality BUT HSE would likely take the view point it was.)
 
BTW you do not need, or at least "shouldn't need", the chainsaw from a MEWP qual if you're chainsaw in a tree qualified...you just need a 'MEWP ticket' plus familiarization training with the MEWP selected.
 
Regards,
Paul

Read more  

Really? If an incident were to happen from said activities and you were not trained to use a saw from a bucket/mewp, it would not be a problem?

Perhaps a tad pedantic but you would need to be 'trained' but not necessarily qualified, i.e. chainsaw from a MEWP (IF you have chainsaw rope n harness.) The 'training', whihc would be a good idea, could be with someone 'competent' in the business but suggest it is structured and recorded.

 

Hope this makes sense.

 

Regards,

Paul

 

[Ferguson system]

I don't know if this is relevant to the UK, but this is what the Norwegian law text says:

"§ 17-24. Use of ropes for access, work and rescue.
When the employer has assessed the risk and finds it justifiable, an employee can use a rope for access and to take up working positions. It is assumed that the work can be carried out in a safe manner and that it will not be appropriate to use other and safer work equipment. 
The employer shall implement the following measures that ensure the safety of employees when using ropes: 

a) the rope system shall include at least two ropes with separate fasteners. 
One rope is a work rope and is used for access, descent and support, 
and the other rope is a safety rope that secures the workers. 
If, after a risk assessment, the employer finds that the use of two ropes will make the work more dangerous, one rope can be used. 
The employer shall then implement suitable measures such as the safety of the employees, 

b) the employees shall be equipped with and use a suitable harness that shall be attached to the safety rope, 

c) the work rope shall be equipped with a device for safe ascent and an automatic locking system that prevents the user in falling, 

d) the safety rope shall have movable fall protection equipment that follows the employee's movements, 

e) tools and other equipment used by the employees shall be secured to the employees' harnesses or work seat or in another, suitable manner, 

f) the work shall be carefully planned and monitored so that employees can get immediate help in an emergency situation. 
The workers must receive the necessary training, exercise and instruction in the work to be done,
especially on procedures during rescue work. 
The rope must, if necessary, be equipped with a work seat. 
In the assessment, special consideration shall be given to the duration of the work and the ergonomic loads the employees are exposed to.
0 Amended by regulations 30 Dec 2013 no. 1725 (in force 1 Jan 2014), 26 June 2015 no. 806 (in force 1 Jan 2016)."

"Comments: Types of work operations where the use of ropes may be relevant are: 
Rescue of personnel, Access for inspection or execution of work in places where it is difficult or impossible to establish collective security, 
such as bridges, silos, masts, poles and trees etc."