Two Rope Working Consultation

[Jake Andrews]

Yes and that’s my point. If an anchor has been tested I.e having 2 fat bastards bounce on it before accent then that anchor is never going to brake whist climbing up.

Not quite. Please don’t bounce on your anchors with two people. It has been known for accidents to arise from doing this. It has weakened branches and they have failed whilst the climber has been ascending.
Instead, two people should statically load the anchor. It’s much safer. Something else that should be on the ICOP.
I’ll be honest and say I don’t really have a massive problem with two rope working, it’s enabled me to get into some very good and safe working positions that I would not of achieved on a single line. My biggest problem is that the ICOP is nowhere near comprehensive enough and is lacking in so much detail. This whole notion has moved too fast and has been rushed.

[Jamie]

Hi,

 

Sorry for my lack of responses.

 

Jake,

The two lines are separate entities. An example would be a working line knotted with a carabiner to a sling round an beam etc. The back up could be anchored onto the same beam. If installing anchors ( such as petzl coeur hangers) you would have the two lines anchored separately with the option of equalising them with a y-hang etc.

 

Each line is anchored separately and is an independent system but can be terminated at the same anchorage point. Does that make sense.i don't have many pictures of access anchors so this will have to do.

I had to haul someone out a chamber, the two gold deviation pulleys had the working and back up lines, 2 independent ropes but anchored around the same point.

 

Marc,

Ive only climbed a few smaller trees with an ASAP, so I can't comment properly on it's performance but I have used them in offshore environments where the salt gets at them and they dont work quite as well.

 

 

[Jamie]

Tom, you have hit the nail on the head, those are my thoughts exactly.

A few points, not all rope firms are IRATA members and don't have to follow IRATA guides. They frequently use IRATA trained techs but don't always have level 3s.

 

[Pete Mctree]

1 hour ago, Jamie said:

Tom, you have hit the nail on the head, those are my thoughts exactly.

A few points, not all rope firms are IRATA members and don't have to follow IRATA guides. They frequently use IRATA trained techs but don't always have level 3s.

 

Thanks for the input Jamie - nice to read you again ?

[scottythepinetree]

The real question here is what is a "reasonably practicable" use of a single rope in a tree. I'm well aware of the "reasonably practicable doctrine". That being:
"Reasonably practicable is a narrower term than ‘physically possible’ and implies that a computation must be made… in which the quantum of risk is placed in one scale and the sacrifice involved in the measures necessary for averting the risk (whether in time, trouble or money) is placed in the other and that, if it be shown that there is a great disproportion between them – the risk being insignificant in relation to the sacrifice – the person upon whom the obligation is imposed discharges the onus which is upon him."

 

Ultimately, what is reasonably practicable is normally determined by a judge, after an accident. In normal circumstances an industry body would give better guidance in what would be justifiable uses of a single rope. In this way, should a judge question a contractors decision, they could point at the guidance and cite this as their reason for believing their choice to be reasonable. I think the AA are really letting the side down by not offering better guidance as to single rope usage. 

[TIMON]

I do hope everyone who has posted valid objections to mandatory ‘two rope working’ on here will take the time to read the draft ICOP and fill in the survey. There is a specific component in the survey to voice your objection.
The deadline is this Friday the 17th

[Gary Prentice]

3 minutes ago, TIMON said:

I do hope everyone who has posted valid objections to mandatory ‘two rope working’ on here will take the time to read the draft ICOP and fill in the survey. There is a specific component in the survey to voice your objection.
The deadline is this Friday the 17th

Sorry Timon I haven't been keeping up. Have you a link to the draft ICOP to hand?

 

If not I'll wade through the last forty odd pages. 

[Gary Prentice]

On 12/01/2020 at 14:31, Jake Andrews said:

I’ll be honest and say I don’t really have a massive problem with two rope working, it’s enabled me to get into some very good and safe working positions that I would not of achieved on a single line.

But as an experienced climber you've probably set something up with a second rope to gain access on occasion and when necessary. I know that I have.

 

I didn't think after that, "Oh what a good idea, I'll continue with two systems for the rest of the tree", probably because I'd realised that it would be more of a hindrance than an asset.

[TIMON]

Sorry Timon I haven't been keeping up. Have you a link to the draft ICOP to hand?
 
If not I'll wade through the last forty odd pages. 

Arboricultural Association - Draft for Consultation: ICoP – Tree Work at Height

WWW.TREES.ORG.UK

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<h2 class= dblue bold >Revised Industry Code of Practice for Arboriculture – Tree Work at Height</h2><h1 class= blue bold display ><span class= blue display >INDUSTRY CONSULTATION</span></h1><h3 class= orange bold >Please submit all responses by Friday 17th January 2020</h3><p class= lead >This is the ‘<a href= https://www.trees.org.uk/Trees.org.uk/media/Trees-org.uk/Documents/ICoP/ICoP-Dec19-ConsultationDraft.pdf target= _blank title= ICoP Draft for Consultation ><span class= bold blue >draft for consultation</span></a>’ for the second edition of the AA’s ‘Industry Code of Practice for Arboriculture – Tree Work at Height’ (ICoP) – First edition published in 2015.</p><p>This revision includes editorial and technical revisions throughout the document but there are specific, significant amendments in:</p><ul class= wia > <li><b>2.8.4 – Crane</b></li> <li><b>2.8.6 – Personal fall protection systems</b></li> <li><b>2.9 – Work positioning and rope access</b></li> <li><b>2.11.6 – [Equipment selection] Performance specifications</b></li></ul><p class= m30 >As with the first edition, the ICoP is aimed at the ‘<b>Responsible Person</b>’ and the ‘<b>Competent Person</b>’ within arboricultural contracting companies. The aim of the ICoP is to identify the principal planning, management and supervisory requirements necessary to establish safe systems of work for tree work operations at height. It is due for publication in early 2020.</p><h3 class= dblue bold >Responses</h3><p>Please read through the draft and make note of any comments. Please then complete the short ‘<a href= https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/2CQ5HB3 target= _blank title= Click here to take the survey ><span class= bold blue >Survey Monkey</span></a>’ questionnaire, adding any extra information where requested.</p><p>If you have a longer or more complex comment or query, please email to <a href= mailto:[email protected] ><span class= bold blue >[email protected]</span></a> with ‘<b>ICoP Draft for consultation</b>’ as the subject title.</p><h4 class= orange bold mt20 >Please submit all responses by Friday 17th January 2020</h4><p>Please use the link below to review the <a href= https://www.trees.org.uk/Trees.org.uk/media/Trees-org.uk/Documents/ICoP/ICoP-Dec19-ConsultationDraft.pdf target= _blank title= ICoP Draft for Consultation ><span class= bold blue >draft for consultation</span></a>.</p><p>You can provide feedback via <a href= https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/2CQ5HB3 target= _blank title= Click here to take the survey ><span class= bold blue >Survey Monkey</span></a> using the link below or the links within the PDF.</p><p class= clearfix mt20 mb20 ><a class= button2 href= https://www.trees.org.uk/Trees.org.uk/media/Trees-org.uk/Documents/ICoP/ICoP-Dec19-ConsultationDraft.pdf >View Draft for Consultation ></a></p><p class= clearfix mb20 ><a class= button2 href= https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/2CQ5HB3 >Take the Survey ></a></p><p>Thank you for taking the time to review the draft for consultation, your feedback is extremely valuable in helping us complete this important new guidance.</p>

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

Evening all, a point of clarification if I may.

 

The ICoP is a management tool and sets out principles for work plans (at height) to be developed. Shortly, and after review and (probable) revision of the ICoP consultation, the associated Technical Guidance, i.e. "the detail", will be produced and issued to industry for consultation.

 

Hence "watch this space" .

 

Thanks, n regards
Paul  

Edited January 13, 2020 by AA Teccie (Paul)
additional wording