Background to the HSE decision on two rope working

[monkeybusiness]

I can’t help but think that the prevalence of utility lads on certain contracts falling out of trees (National Grid contract has a spate of incidents at one point from memory) and the subsequent early insistence of 2 line working within sectors of that industry, which sadly now appears to be being forced upon the wider industry by those with our apparent best interests at heart, stems from a few factors - 

 

Possible unskilled workers (I think it is more likely to be complacency/rushing/trying to hit targets/cutting corners from skilled workers but that will usually register as lack of skill) not adhering to current best practice/not clipping in properly etc (maybe free-climbing and covering up the reality after the event...).

 

The aforementioned targets driven by price in the rush-to-the-bottom industry structure forcing unattainable productivity demands leading to corners being cut by some subbies (actual tree cutting firms/lads as opposed to the management-firm contract holders in the middle who constantly drive rates down).

 

Repeated ‘tickling’ of trees instead of removal/replanting, which leads to regular epicormic anchor-points and their associated issues. Trees aren’t removed as there is no incentive (for the incumbent contractor) to provide a long-term clearance as the nature of the DNO contracts is very short term, price driven and liable to change (firms win the work as cheaply as possible, appear to do as little as possible, and the unaddressed issues get passed on to the cheapest firm next time around who carry on doing as little as they can get away with etc). This unfortunately leads to the actual tree-climbing lads having to climb dodgy trees as fast as possible...

 

Within utilities there are often stipulations with regards ppe which can make simple tasks harder, and can subsequently lead to increased task-loading issues for climbers (re-sheathing a climbing saw between cuts, wearing cut-proof gloves whilst using a silky etc). I don’t personally believe these HSEQ statistic-driven ‘solutions’ always benefit overall site safety (from both a practical view and importantly also from an alienation-of-the-workforce, those-desk-pushers-don’t-know-what-they-are-talking-about-so-we-might-as-well-ignore-them angle). 

 

These issues are unlikely to be addressed as accountants hold the purse strings at the end of the day - it is much easier for those in charge to say ‘You need more anchor points’ and then (unfortunately rightly from a legal point of view) be able to point the blame at the individual climber who doesn’t adhere to this as being at fault when corners are cut and accidents happen. 

 

I’m not sure what the answer is - one is obviously less likely to fall to the ground if tied in with double/triple/quadruple the number of ropes and anchor points but the limited statistics available don’t give the full picture. 

 

The HSE are essentially God in this scenario (certainly from a legal point of view) - I guess it will basically become an on-site paperwork exercise risk assessing two ropes out where their use makes the job more hazardous than it needs to be. 

 

 

[Mullany]

The two anchor points part is obviously going to be problematic given that many trees wont give that as an option (unless you count a nominal point further down the stem as a second anchor) but I think a solution could be engineered so that operating two ropes was as convenient as operating 1. Perhaps something like a double zigzag or ropewalker. Potentially this would allow us to use thinner ropes.

It would be a similar scenario to running two ropes when you go rock climbing. 

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

1 hour ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

Hi Kevin, the Association is part of the ‘Horticultural Group.’  

I did see that group Paul. Maybe that’s a part of the problem?

 

there is a forestry group, a timber industry group, an ancient and veteran tree group.....

 

Yet Arb is side lined into the (swear word) gardeners group?

 

Mate, seriously?

Edited September 3, 2019 by kevinjohnsonmbe

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

Don’t know the background to that one particularly Kevin. I think the Association got involved via the HTA regarding plant biosecurity.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

58 minutes ago, Khriss said:

Might be pertinent to point out now, arguing abt how it slows climbers down- when you see the huge number of shit cuts done. Or sloppy reductions. That some climbers accept. I view tree health and vigour above how quick you got in the pub..... K

That’s important Khrushchev (that was spell check not me ?), but a bit tangential to potentially making working practice more awkward, cumbersome and with no guarantee of being safer. 

 

Relates more to training/passion/professionalism and time/money constraints rather than whether an additional rope is a step forward. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by kevinjohnsonmbe

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

12 minutes ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

Don’t know the background to that one particularly Kevin. I think the Association got involved via the HTA regarding plant biosecurity.

Sorry, Paul, I pressed send before I’d finished 

[openspaceman]

1 hour ago, Stubby said:

At the end of the day , how will this be policed ?  If people carry on as before and don't have an accident ( as they never have before )  what is to stop small firms ( one climber and one or two groundies )  carrying on as they have ? I am talking domestic work here .

It won't be actively policed but will be as the result of a mishap. Failing that if it's anything like scaffolding or roofing firms being prosecuted beware the neighbour taking pictures.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

As an aside, just finished the worst ever neighbour from hell job imaginable. Even with some of the most relaxed, laid back, professional boys (myself excluded) it tested my patience to the extreme!

 

We were literally watched, photographed, videoed the whole 3 days by lunatics with hard hats, walkie talkies, deck chairs and hard hats. Any opportunity for criticism and interference was pounced upon: shouting directives at the climber, negotiating with the tree owner and generally being a total PITA. 

 

How i held my composure came as a massive surprise not only to the boys, but also to me!

 

Ive never been quite so close to cutting someone’s head off with a blunt chain....

 

And that’s where it’ll be policed (as is the case with HSE prosecutions for dodgy roofers - curtain twitchers with a camera) That and post incident investigations (which you have to pay for BTW ?)

[jmac]

On 02/09/2019 at 11:54, Ian C said:

Paul, is there any truth in this

Sse have been using 2 ropes for about 10 years now! Knee jerk reaction to some twat falling ten ft out a tree after tying into a bit of epi regrowth! 

[drinksloe]

47 minutes ago, jmac said:

Sse have been using 2 ropes for about 10 years now! Knee jerk reaction to some twat falling ten ft out a tree after tying into a bit of epi regrowth! 

Do they all use 2 ropes thou??

I'd certainly never heard of it before 

 

I'm a bit out off touch nowadays but 5 years ago spikeing up living trees with 1 rope and strop was standard practice. Even on live trees and near live wires.

Wind back a further 5 to 10 years to railway work and free spiking to top/where u lost ur bottle,  was the norm, which even then was against all best practice guidelines.

And in the rail industry which regarded itself as extra safe

Edited September 3, 2019 by drinksloe