Background to the HSE decision on two rope working

[Mark Bolam]

We would all like a safer industry, better paid, better recognised, better regulated, right?

I’ve listened to whinging on here for a decade about plumbers, sparkies etc. earning more than us, but the fact is they are better trained.

No one is Gas Safe after a month.

 

No problem.

 

Increase training times, raise standards.

 

The problem is you will be competing against people who have no standards in the first place, and the HSE let them operate with impunity.

A lot of domestic customers have no idea what treework costs. Why would they?

We lose.

I’ve spent tens of thousands of pounds over the years on training and insurance, and I sometimes wonder why I bothered.

Buying a top handle without proof of competence?

Ebay is your friend there.

Any comment on that HSE?

Travellers with flash signwritten trucks doing treework, no tickets, no insurance, top handles everywhere.

Any comment on that HSE?

Big companies underbidding tree maintenance contracts to balance the books then sending out young guys on £80/day to do medium takedowns the spreadsheet says are worth £120.

Any comment on that HSE?

 

Thought not.

 

You’re not only ignorant, you’re spineless.

 

[email protected] if you want to take it outside.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

10 minutes ago, Mark Bolam said:

We would all like a safer industry, better paid, better recognised, better regulated, right?

I’ve listened to whinging on here for a decade about plumbers, sparkies etc. earning more than us, but the fact is they are better trained.

No one is Gas Safe after a month.

 

No problem.

 

Increase training times, raise standards.

The problem is you will be competing against people who have no standards in the first place, and the HSE let them operate with impunity.

A lot of domestic customers have no idea what treework costs. Why would they?

We lose.

I’ve spent tens of thousands of pounds over the years on training and insurance, and I sometimes wonder why I bothered.

Buying a top handle without proof of competence?

Ebay is your friend there.

Any comment on that HSE?

Travellers with flash signwritten trucks doing treework, no tickets, no insurance, top handles everywhere.

Any comment on that HSE?

Big companies underbidding tree maintenance contracts to balance the books then sending out young guys on £80/day to do medium takedowns the spreadsheet says are worth £120.

Any comment on that HSE?

 

Thought not.

 

You’re not only ignorant, you’re spineless.

 

[email protected] if you want to take it outside.

They’ll have their mates at HMRC pay you a visit instead Mr B!  FCK the system!

[Mark Bolam]

I’m clean Kev.

[Mark Bolam]

It’s all in the attic, behind the water tank.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

38 minutes ago, Mark Bolam said:

I’m clean Kev.

Me too Guv!

[Konstantly]

How many roofers do you see blatantly ignoring the HSE, no doubt plumbers and sparkies too behind closed doors. Bet the building industry have similar problems with the HSE not enforcing yet more legislation that companies with good intentions adhered too.

We tend to make a little more noise than them and attract nosey neighbours, thus attention.. yet still the cut corner cutters get away with it.

I think someone pointed it out already. More companies will just give all the accreditation the rods and get away with it.. get fined.. fine. Will have saved the money from not spending it on training and further development.... is this the way to go?

No... name n shame. Super grass. Self regulation? 

Most likely not.

More focus on training and further development to a safe working practices on the tools? 

Much more preferable...

 

On 09/09/2019 at 22:17, dumper said:

How can one persons flawed opinion and interpretation of a document be allowed to have such a impact on a industry, they don’t have the correct statistics to back up Their actions surely its reasonable to request them to justify themselves  would there evidence of accidents stand up in court? 

Agree with your points.

I'm sure in the case, would an extra rope on a separate anchor prevented the fall from cut line/failure of anchor point then the awnser would be yes in a court inquest. 

The question is why did the anchor failure occur or rope get cut?

Surely a better understanding of force impact on said points and better work position with saw management should be looked at as an option at training and initial mentorship times.

Not having these occurrences in the first instance needs to be addressed.

Not tangling us all up with more legislation and ropes that will make work more complex than it need be. Not to mention other valied points made elsewhere in the thread.

[jfc]

OK, here's my 2 penneth worth.

 

 1. Is there any legal route that we can challenge the HSE decision, ie an appeal process?

2. If we as an industry can provide evidence that this is not suitable for our type of work then we can present that in contrast.

 

Both of these aspects I feel the AA would be in the best place to investigate.

 

It may be that Arborists need to crowdfund  option 2.

 

Has the AA taken legal advice on the HSE decision?

 

I will try asking someone (Lawyer)  who specialises in this area for some advice.

 

jan.

[Tom D]

 I knew that Mark. It's crazy that all this is down to one guy at the HSE, I don't think that there was any panel.

 

Unfortunately the HSE looked at a list of accidents and decided that all these would have been prevented by a second line. It's hard to argue with that. We'll have to wait 10 years and see what the accident stats look like then. 

 

The problem is of course that 90% of the industry won't follow these rules and so we'll never see the true picture of what 2 rope working will do to the stats. 

 

The HSE were also made aware of the fact that this was playing not the hands of the non compliant and would likely penalise the compliant. They still pressed ahead.

[Jcarbor]

We would all like a safer industry, better paid, better recognised, better regulated, right?
I’ve listened to whinging on here for a decade about plumbers, sparkies etc. earning more than us, but the fact is they are better trained.
No one is Gas Safe after a month.
 
No problem.
 
Increase training times, raise standards.
 
The problem is you will be competing against people who have no standards in the first place, and the HSE let them operate with impunity.
A lot of domestic customers have no idea what treework costs. Why would they?
We lose.
I’ve spent tens of thousands of pounds over the years on training and insurance, and I sometimes wonder why I bothered.
Buying a top handle without proof of competence?
Ebay is your friend there.
Any comment on that HSE?
Travellers with flash signwritten trucks doing treework, no tickets, no insurance, top handles everywhere.
Any comment on that HSE?
Big companies underbidding tree maintenance contracts to balance the books then sending out young guys on £80/day to do medium takedowns the spreadsheet says are worth £120.
Any comment on that HSE?
 
Thought not.
 
You’re not only ignorant, you’re spineless.
 
[email protected] if you want to take it outside.

The HSE would never have the time or the inclination to prosecute Mr Smith tree service ( stop the driver and ask for a quote)
If your a professional arb company with all the correct tickets insurance and a fixed abode then yes they will.
The problem with this industry is its riddled with rouge traders who don’t give a shit about the issues that probably worry you all. Yet
here’s yet another issue to be concerned about from the powers above.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

An interesting parallel:

 

AA draft ‘working with cranes’ technical guide:

 

https://www.trees.org.uk/Trees.org.uk/media/Trees-org.uk/Documents/4-Use-of-Cranes-in-Arboriculture-SR-180817.pdf

 

just after para 2.1 the ‘important note’ specifically recognises the paramount importance of gaining industry endorsement from the crane operators if the TG is to have any credibility / use. 

Seems pretty obvious really. 

 

Granted, the 2 rope 2 TIP issue appears to be HSE rather than AA driven, but if the AA can’t (or won’t) acknowledge and champion the legitimate concerns being expressed from within the industry - well, that can only create even greater degrees of separation between the AA and the industry.