Low impact forestry services in Devon and the South West

[Big J]

1 minute ago, The avantgardener said:

You would be lucky to get £150-£200 a day hand cutting in Kent and Sussex, and that’s for experienced guys with all the tickets.

All the young guys want to go into Arb, better pay, most of the time easier than production cutting and you can collect loads of fancy gadgets and go-pro everything.

LANTRA run the bulk amount of chainsaw training in the UK, the last figures I heard was that 85% of those awarded certification intended to go into Arb.

I really don’t see many younger guys entering the Forestry sectors round these parts.

It's a shame really as a basis in forestry would mean that they are far better equipped when working in Arb. But many just don't want to do it. 

 

I had a young lad on a site a while back, came with another cutter. This young lad was a tree surgeon but really, really struggled in the woods. Production rate was about 10-15% of what my usual cutters were doing, and he was hanging tree ups constantly. After a day, I was getting to the end of my tether, and as I drove past him starting on a tree (15" DBH, if I was to guess) taking off the first buttress when it didn't need to be debuttressed. I drove down to the loading bay and then passed him on the way back up 7-8 min later. Taking off the third buttress. He then misjudged the fell, the tree sat back on his saw and it had to be winched over.

 

After that, I put him with my best cutter for the afternoon and his production rate tripled. I said that I couldn't have him back under the current arrangement, but I'd be prepared to pay him £100/day to work alongside my best cutter for a week. It wasn't something that would benefit me, but it would be very valuable for him. He declined and is as far as I know back to doing small garden trees and hedges. My point is, that you can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink. 

 

There are some excellent tree surgeons out there, but I think most of them have some forestry experience. Having that ability to cut effectively means that a lot of the cross over jobs (site clearances, estate work) can be very profitable and a lot less hassle than domestic arb.

[The avantgardener]

In over twenty years I can count on one hand the amount of tree surgeons that I have worked with who are also excellent and productive hand cutters, completely different skill set really.

[ESS]

55 minutes ago, Big J said:

No, he's cutting extremely well and he doesn't need guidance. He has however been working with me off and on for 7 years, and we've got a very good understanding. You also have to think that if he's on site without transport and I'm collecting him from the airport, transporting him to site, buying him a caravan, fetching his gas bottles and taking him shopping for his food (as well as collecting fuel), then my costs are more than the £200/day I'm paying him. He is also working under my insurance.

 

I agree that wages need to go up overall and that there is a shortage of cutters. The issue is that the pricing of jobs hasn't yet caught up to that fact so it's not something that can be done overnight. £35/hr might be feasible for the top 1%, but most cutters aren't worth that. 

 

Personally, I'd much rather stay in a caravan on site than have to commute back and forth or use a B and B. 

 

The main issue is that most folk when they think of chainsaw work just jump straight into tree surgery. There is much more work and indeed money in hand cutting, but very few tree surgeons can do production felling to any standard. 

 

I think we agree in principle on a lot, but it still feels like you're having a go at me when I'm paying more than most, offering working conditions that are very good on sites that are interesting and varied. 

No, I am not having a go at you, that's why I questioned how comfortable you would be with £35 /hr.. 

Since mechanised harvesting the attitude of "they are only cutters" has become norm. As long as that attitude prevails then things wont change.By the same token if someone is paying a few quid more it doesn't make it right or what someone is worth.

I don't agree however that even on difficult sites there isn't a piece rate that will fit the job.Cutters earn what they are worth, those that are lesser able learn the quicker and easier ways of doing the job, or starve. Even in my 60s I was putting the equivalent of £35/hr out on piece, I do not believe that cutters should prop bad extraction up from their rates. If a job loses money because of extraction then that is the contractor that priced the job that should take the knock.Indirectly that's expecting a cutter to pay someone elses finance, just the same as a contractor saying he can only afford £160 a day for edge trees, why?

I don't agree that only the top 1% are the only ones worth £35/hr, and quite frankly find that a little arrogant that you feel you are in a position to judge that. There will not be a top 1% if current trends continue, in the past people like myself brought younger people up through the trade, but I will not cut for the rates a lot of people are offering now,  how much you enjoy a job isn't a currency, its what you have to spend in Tesco that matters too. An inexperienced cutter has the same set up and running costs as an experienced guy,but when experienced guys are asked to cut for  bugger all there is no middle ground.I still enjoy cutting, but only good timber at a price.I can get more sat on a machine than most cutters are expected to work for, a lot of experienced guys take the same view.

I started in the industry mid 70s, cutters were highly respected as they were the key to the job. Even back then a cutter on piece could afford lodge when away from home, and yet now there are guys sleeping in cars to do the job. Doesn't stack up does it ?

[ESS]

59 minutes ago, The avantgardener said:

In over twenty years I can count on one hand the amount of tree surgeons that I have worked with who are also excellent and productive hand cutters, completely different skill set really.

I think I could say the same in over 40 years, but by the same token I would be shit at climbing.

It is a different skill step, and I take nothing away from climbers by saying that.

[Big J]

1 minute ago, ESS said:

No, I am not having a go at you, that's why I questioned how comfortable you would be with £35 /hr.. 

Since mechanised harvesting the attitude of "they are only cutters" has become norm. As long as that attitude prevails then things wont change.By the same token if someone is paying a few quid more it doesn't make it right or what someone is worth.

I don't agree however that even on difficult sites there isn't a piece rate that will fit the job.Cutters earn what they are worth, those that are lesser able learn the quicker and easier ways of doing the job, or starve. Even in my 60s I was putting the equivalent of £35/hr out on piece, I do not believe that cutters should prop bad extraction up from their rates. If a job loses money because of extraction then that is the contractor that priced the job that should take the knock.Indirectly that's expecting a cutter to pay someone elses finance, just the same as a contractor saying he can only afford £160 a day for edge trees, why?

I don't agree that only the top 1% are the only ones worth £35/hr, and quite frankly find that a little arrogant that you feel you are in a position to judge that. There will not be a top 1% if current trends continue, in the past people like myself brought younger people up through the trade, but I will not cut for the rates a lot of people are offering now,  how much you enjoy a job isn't a currency, its what you have to spend in Tesco that matters too. An inexperienced cutter has the same set up and running costs as an experienced guy,but when experienced guys are asked to cut for  bugger all there is no middle ground.I still enjoy cutting, but only good timber at a price.I can get more sat on a machine than most cutters are expected to work for, a lot of experienced guys take the same view.

I started in the industry mid 70s, cutters were highly respected as they were the key to the job. Even back then a cutter on piece could afford lodge when away from home, and yet now there are guys sleeping in cars to do the job. Doesn't stack up does it ?

I do agree that cutters are on the whole completely undervalued. The chap staying in the caravan on site is in the caravan because there is no accommodation nearby and he doesn't drive. What other option would he have? 

 

I started out on self-select hardwood thinning and if I do say so myself, I am very good at it. Softwood felling isn't my forte but put me on 70ft 12" dbh beech, ash, oak or sycamore, and very few people will outcut me. My point is that I'm not a machine operator that doesn't have cutting experience. 

 

Can we just agree that cutter rates need to go up across the board and that whilst my rates are good, they could go up too? You've rather derailed my thread, which I'm not entirely happy about.

[openspaceman]

On 29/03/2019 at 09:27, ESS said:

Any machine will make marks if the conditions are wet .

The reality is that an 8 wheel harvester will exert no more ground pressure than a tractor/trailer outfit , same with 8 wheel forwarder, plus the bonus of 8 wheel drive producing less wheel spin.

 

Ess plkease don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting we could or should return to the old ways, the history of technological progress is such that machines take the starin, as you say motor manual working is very wearing at the moment and over years of use.  For sure it means less workers but they migrate to other work and always have had.

 

I was also referring to amenity woodland, of which this is a case, rather than commercial blocks which no one will ever wander through.

 

Yes the surface effects of an 8 wheel machine weighing  30tonnes may be less than a 4 tonne tractor and 9 tonne of trailer but the deep down compaction effects are greater. Also the 8 wheeler is wide and often restricted to travelling in the same rut whereas the smaller machine  could, but not many do, seek another track to spread the damage.

On 29/03/2019 at 09:27, ESS said:

 

Its easy to say harvesters make a mess, I started in this industry when skidders were used, and we made some awful messes on some sites.

So did I, in fact apart from hand balling pulpwood onto trailer and lorries  all my work was skidding till I afforded a grapple loader in 1984. Ground skidding did look messy but as long as wheelspin wasn't excessive the ground recovered quickly because the imposed loads were less than shortwood. In fact when extracting large hardwoods with a small tractor by travelling forward and then winching in made little long term damage.

On 29/03/2019 at 09:27, ESS said:

Some sites have to be worked in unfavourable conditions to meet time constraints, that's part of forestry, we cannot make weather to suit us.

 

 

 Yes and this is exacerbated by the high capital costs of the machinery which has to be paid whether it is worked or not.

 

Gone are the days when I could sit a tractor up for 6 months of winter while I felled for extraction from May onwards.

 

[openspaceman]

4 minutes ago, Big J said:

 You've rather derailed my thread, which I'm not entirely happy about. 

?

 

Thread drift happens and no one except a sponsor or administrator has any say in that.

[ESS]

1 minute ago, openspaceman said:

 

Ess plkease don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting we could or should return to the old ways, the history of technological progress is such that machines take the starin, as you say motor manual working is very wearing at the moment and over years of use.  For sure it means less workers but they migrate to other work and always have had.

 

I was also referring to amenity woodland, of which this is a case, rather than commercial blocks which no one will ever wander through.

 

Yes the surface effects of an 8 wheel machine weighing  30tonnes may be less than a 4 tonne tractor and 9 tonne of trailer but the deep down compaction effects are greater. Also the 8 wheeler is wide and often restricted to travelling in the same rut whereas the smaller machine  could, but not many do, seek another track to spread the damage.

So did I, in fact apart from hand balling pulpwood onto trailer and lorries  all my work was skidding till I afforded a grapple loader in 1984. Ground skidding did look messy but as long as wheelspin wasn't excessive the ground recovered quickly because the imposed loads were less than shortwood. In fact when extracting large hardwoods with a small tractor by travelling forward and then winching in made little long term damage.

 

 

 Yes and this is exacerbated by the high capital costs of the machinery which has to be paid whether it is worked or not.

 

Gone are the days when I could sit a tractor up for 6 months of winter while I felled for extraction from May onwards.

 

To a degree that's forestry today isn't it ? Its a slightly different situation in the south with terrain. I am from the north and can honestly say that a lot of the big hardwood skidding caused more than just surface damage. The company I first started with used D4s because nothing other than tracked machines could travel the ground and a lot of trees were 200 hoppus plus. Forestry and mess have always gone together.

I will say though that I have worked on Sussex sites after the blow in 87 and there are still ruts in the heavy clay from 87 filled with water, but there again contractors were only doing what they were asked to do.

[ESS]

8 minutes ago, openspaceman said:

?

 

Thread drift happens and no one except a sponsor or administrator has any say in that.

I actually derailed the  thread as its called because I read something at some point that the o p had written about paying excellent cutting rates. Personally I feel that if someone puts that out there it has the right to be challenged.?

[The avantgardener]

3 minutes ago, ESS said:

I actually derailed the  thread as its called because I read something at some point that the o p had written about paying excellent cutting rates. Personally I feel that if someone puts that out there it has the right to be challenged.?

I would consider them to be good rates compared to the norm in my parts, if J was closer I would  certainly be in his cutting gang.