IVY

[ABtrees]

OK so my next question is, if we take it that ivy is generally bad for the trees health - using resources, strangling the tree and increasing 'sail area' (especially today !) - is there a point at which particularly with old trees where it can have a beneficial  effect in terms of structural support. I have a 60/70 ft Black Poplar (I think) which is covered in ivy and clearly not well - it shed a limb or two over the last 5 yrs and is diseased (a white area of mould/ fungus). It also has a lot of ivy fed by numerous trunks, the thickest of which are (2 at) about 8in in diameter - I only discovered them once I started clearing it (chopping an ivy free belt around the tree).  So my question is should I leave it or should I chop it through ?

 

I'll have a go at uploading a picture later if I get the chance - windblown allowing - stay safe.

Edited January 3, 2018 by ABtrees
spelling !

[daltontrees]

3 hours ago, ABtrees said:

OK so my next question is, if we take it that ivy is generally bad for the trees health - using resources, strangling the tree and increasing 'sail area' (especially today !) - is there a point at which particularly with old trees where it can have a beneficial  effect in terms of structural support. I have a 60/70 ft Black Poplar (I think) which is covered in ivy and clearly not well - it shed a limb or two over the last 5 yrs and is diseased (a white area of mould/ fungus). It also has a lot of ivy fed by numerous trunks, the thickest of which are (2 at) about 8in in diameter - I only discovered them once I started clearing it (chopping an ivy free belt around the tree).  So my question is should I leave it or should I chop it through ?

 

I'll have a go at uploading a picture later if I get the chance - windblown allowing - stay safe.

I once took a tree down which was dead and was supported entirely with ivy. Ivy that had killed the tree orweakened it through lack of light to teh point where it had succumbed to  some or other infection. So working ackwards from that point, there may have been a time when it was still alive but so weak that it couldn't have stood up without ivy support. If someone wanted to retaina tree beyond the point where it couldn't support itself, then ivy could arguably be doing the job for a while.

 

But when doing risk assessments, i.e. when there are people or property to be harmed or damaged, I would never rely on ivy to justify the retention of a tree which in any other respect was a less than acceptable risk. I wopuld not expose clients to that sort of legal liability, as I think it should be indefensible.

 

In reality, although ivy is woody, it's not a conventional wood. Ivy rarely has to support itelf in tension or compression to any significant extent. Its properties are therefore at best unpredictable, at worst predictably poor (holding up bottles of vodka excluded).

 

So if your tree is being supported by ivy,  chopping the ivy will cause the tree to fail. Chop one, expect to be picking the other up shortly. If you don't know if the ivy is supporting it, assume it is. If you think it's not supporting it, sever it to give the tree a chance, you'll be in no worse a position than now. It all comes down to where it is relative to people and property.

 

That's it with ivy, you can't ever say for sure if it's helping, and if it is it's a false friend.

 

I've had a case of a birch splitting its bark (really irrecoverably) due to the additional low spring sunlight. For surveys I usually specify severing it straight away and letting it die on the tree for a year or so. The loss of ivy leaves is often enough to allow sight of forks and cavities a year later, and if it does need to be removed when dead it comes off relatively easily.

 

Ivy holds on partly by water-absorbing tendrils, so yes it does absorb from water hitting it or running down the bark of the tree. The tendrils when ripped off creates and releases lots of dust, i hate having to remove it. I didn't know it was toxic too.

 

Once I get my microscope going I will get some sections of ivy under it and see what the structure is compared to load-bearing wood. Gary Prentice and I are currently debating the merits of stains and filters that might show up cellulose and lignin content and cell wall make-up.

[Gary Prentice]

1 hour ago, daltontrees said:

Once I get my microscope going I will get some sections of ivy under it and see what the structure is compared to load-bearing wood. Gary Prentice and I are currently debating the merits of stains and filters that might show up cellulose and lignin content and cell wall make-up.

Debating the merits?

 

I was waiting for you to write something to tell me what to buy?  I'm waiting for some Toluidine Blue atm

[sime42]

I've nothing to add to DTs very complete answer! Except that in my experience Ivy is not at all strong in bending. Snaps very easily when you try to bend it.

[ABtrees]

2 hours ago, daltontrees said:

I once took a tree down which was dead and was supported entirely with ivy. Ivy that had killed the tree orweakened it through lack of light to teh point where it had succumbed to  some or other infection. So working ackwards from that point, there may have been a time when it was still alive but so weak that it couldn't have stood up without ivy support. If someone wanted to retaina tree beyond the point where it couldn't support itself, then ivy could arguably be doing the job for a while.

 

But when doing risk assessments, i.e. when there are people or property to be harmed or damaged, I would never rely on ivy to justify the retention of a tree which in any other respect was a less than acceptable risk. I wopuld not expose clients to that sort of legal liability, as I think it should be indefensible.

 

In reality, although ivy is woody, it's not a conventional wood. Ivy rarely has to support itelf in tension or compression to any significant extent. Its properties are therefore at best unpredictable, at worst predictably poor (holding up bottles of vodka excluded).

 

So if your tree is being supported by ivy,  chopping the ivy will cause the tree to fail. Chop one, expect to be picking the other up shortly. If you don't know if the ivy is supporting it, assume it is. If you think it's not supporting it, sever it to give the tree a chance, you'll be in no worse a position than now. It all comes down to where it is relative to people and property.

 

That's it with ivy, you can't ever say for sure if it's helping, and if it is it's a false friend.

 

I've had a case of a birch splitting its bark (really irrecoverably) due to the additional low spring sunlight. For surveys I usually specify severing it straight away and letting it die on the tree for a year or so. The loss of ivy leaves is often enough to allow sight of forks and cavities a year later, and if it does need to be removed when dead it comes off relatively easily.

 

Ivy holds on partly by water-absorbing tendrils, so yes it does absorb from water hitting it or running down the bark of the tree. The tendrils when ripped off creates and releases lots of dust, i hate having to remove it. I didn't know it was toxic too.

 

Once I get my microscope going I will get some sections of ivy under it and see what the structure is compared to load-bearing wood. Gary Prentice and I are currently debating the merits of stains and filters that might show up cellulose and lignin content and cell wall make-up.

 

Thanks for your response Jules.  I have tried to attach (first time I've tried this) a few pics showing said tree. The first shows the two remaining ivy trunks. The second shows the 'fungus' patch (and a bit of burr) and the last one shows both the scale of the problem and the fact that as it is on the edge of my field (part of a really old tree line that I would like to keep) if it does fail it won't affect (hit) anyone or thing apart from other trees maybe !

[Gary Prentice]

How far does that crack extend, diametrically and longitudinally? I think that it quite possible that the ivy is holding the stem together like ratchet straps. 

 

What to do? The ivy above the crown break will be adding to the loading on the tree, most importantly the dynamic load when it's windy. If the crack is extensive and not just to the surface/outermost rings then the higher ivy is very detrimental and probably best removed or at least severed, but retaining the lower stuff around the stem.

 

My best guess based on the photos.

 

 

 

 

[Mick Dempsey]

Forget about it, leave it to fall over or stay standing, pops rot out and disintegrate very quickly.

 

[sime42]

Here's another question.
Do we think that there is more Ivy around than there used to be? It might just be fanciful thinking on my part......... I read recently that pernicious weeds such as nettles, brambles, bracken etc are more of a problem nowadays in woodland due to fertilizer run off from farmland. Maybe this is the case for Ivy too.

[Steve Bullman]

On 1/3/2018 at 01:15, bluebedouin said:

Makes a nice holder for my vodka optic.

Has to be the best use of ivy i've seen before

 

[ABtrees]

On ‎03‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 19:39, Mick Dempsey said:

Forget about it, leave it to fall over or stay standing, pops rot out and disintegrate very quickly.

 

I agree Mick but that's why I was hoping to keep the old one upright a bit longer ! This Lombardy fell over week before last - the picture makes it obvious why.  Apart from another footbridge across the river can anyone suggest anything it is useful for, apart from 'habitat' - I have enough of that locally at the moment !  I read it's not even much good as firewood?