Free will or lack of.......

[Mesterh]

It does sound a bit all matrix to be. I think free will isn't that important themr 

 

 

 

[the village idiot]

3 minutes ago, Mesterh said:

It does sound a bit all matrix to be. I think free will isn't that important themr 

 

 

 

It's a funny one. On some levels it isn't important, on others it is.

 

Some people who reject free will outright think that we should pretend it is real anyway. Some think that by rejecting it totally we can improve society. Still others think that civilisation will fall apart.

 

I usually take a stance with things like this that we should always accept what is true (if we can find out what is) and adjust in the best way possible to the implications.

 

Others may differ!

[Billhook]

I like Chalmers idea of consciousness as a fundamental.

 

 

I watched Vespacian's "Mind over Masters" and the Sam Harris videos.

I am not convinced that the experiment which appears to show that we have no free will is valid.  The fact that your mind knows the answer before the fact becomes apparent to everyone else could be due to other factors, such as accessing the quantum in a way not understood at present.  This does not mean that you have no free will.

If consciousness is like a giant internet which soaks up every conscious thought that there ever has been, and you have found access to this "internet" by say meditation, then you could appear to see the future.  Perhaps not actually seeing the actual future but seeing a series of  events that would lead you to believe in a very likely result.

 

Take this website as being a tiny example.  You all have found access to this information by having a computer, an internet server, a code and an identity for this forum.  A modern form of going into a meditative trance!

 In the primitive world, as a Bushman, an Aborigine or a Red Indian  might induce a trance before they go off hunting for water or bison to gain similar information from the fundamental  consciousness.  They then go off on their search looking for signs to guide them.  Signs that they may have seen in their "dream"

 

I could post on here that "Billhook will be sitting under Nelson's Column at Midday on Sunday December 31st"

There is a strong possibility that you would see me there on the day, and that is the most likely scenario, but I may have been involved in an accident on the way so it did not happen.

In the same way in these experiments the mind of the volunteer has assessed the most likely outcome rather than actually seeing the future.

I remain a POSSIBILARIAN at heart but I am heading towards free will which is guided by a greater consciousness which has grown up alongside the life force, both of which came into being by random activity rather than intelligent design.

[Vespasian]

Moment of clarity..

 

In those experiments on free will, might we be reading those ECG's wrong....   what if they're not evidence of the brain manipulating events but of the mind seeing events?...  

 

Its a pretty weak argument I know, but still...

 

Let me explain...  lets say that the brain has seen what you are going to do, those brain waves are at some unfathomable level working it out.. the brain has figured out your next move half a second before you act..

The next question should that be true is is the mind capable of seeing future events in other scenarios?..  we've all had that experience of thinking of an old friend we hadn't seen in years and later that day or hr bumped into them.. perhaps the brain knows we're gonna be seeing them shortly and has prepped the conscious mind for whats about to take place by putting into our conscious mind thoughts related to that future encounter..

 

perhaps the mind is much more attuned than we think, and here and there it lets you know how much more powerful than you that it is...

 

Yesterday I was looking at two words and had to look up their proper definitions in an online dictionary.. having mused on their meaning for a while I put the matter to bed.. sometime later in the day, I was wondering what to watch next and was led from one utube vid to the next eventually landing on some black comedian an earlier vid had promoted me to investigate..

 

I clicked on the vid but skipped the first five minutes as thats usually the introductions, and low and behold the very first two words out this fella's mouth were the ones I'd earlier been ruminating on..  I was a bit taken aback but then I remembered those ECG experiments..

 

Perhaps, just perhaps, those experiments weren't exposing evidence of brain manipulation but insight...   intuition.. perhaps the mind can see much further into the future than we can imagine...

 

 

Perhaps those spooky moments in life are the dark side of the brain throwing you a bone..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[the village idiot]

Fascinating comments folks

 

I'll have to get back to you this evening, but my subconcious can hopefully make some headway whilst I show my visiting family the Suffolk rain

Edited December 29, 2017 by the village idiot

[WesD]

Ok so my meditation session was .... interesting. 

 

I tried to meditate like explained concentrating on your breathing. 

 

I kind of struggled to maintain concentration on breath as thoughts on other things kept trying to ruminate, you said this would happen so after 5 minutes of back and forth to the breath I actually give in to the thoughts and let them flow concentrating on letting them happen without interruption and wow what a busy place the brain is very receptive to anything we do or in this state don’t do. It was far more relaxing being a passenger to the thoughts without trying to stop or control them than it was to keep concentrating on the breath as every time you think or hear something you break concentration so to speak to go back to the breath it’s quite a bit of work. 

 

It was was much easier to become lost and a passenger to my thoughts and let it happen then muse it all over after I had finished. Very relaxing process. 

 

Ill try the breath each thing again but will probably revert back to the relax process I fell on. 

[WesD]

Ok so back to free will, everything we do is based on our brains guiding us via past experiences and best guessing based on experiences we have previously had but once we have to make a decision does our brain do the maths and we chose the most favourable hence no free will or do we still get the choice to go against that and chose the option we believe to be the least favourable can that be perceived as free will or did our brain know we would choose that and give us the pat on the back anyway at which point if that is the case surely our computer is selling us short?!  

 

In a coin toss what if when the coin was in the air you merely didn’t call? Kind of like green on the roulette wheel? So while the coin is in the air your brain is working out options based on the info and it knows based on the info and past experiences it’s 50/50 so does it pick for you or let you choose as it doesn’t matter it’s 50/50 if it’s the latter then it could be perceived we have free will (granted when it doesn’t matter). 

 

What if if we are lead down the garden path by our super computer but when we get to the end if the odds are 50/50 choice is ours?

 

After all even computers have glitches. 

Using the coin toss again if I toss that coin 10 times using past experiences and information we know it’s 50/50 so one would think what you choose is irrelevant however if you decided on heads you’d pick that for all 10 coin toss’s However in practice that is never the case people swap and change trying to beat the odds so to speak. Is that free will or our brains if it’s our brains we are rather inefficient as we know probability and should stick with heads if we go against that is it free will?

 

Deep. 

[peatff]

Many years ago I watched a documentary studying brain wave patterns of people in different states and one that stood out was when they asked for people to go into a daydreaming state very much like the meditative state others were attaining. One example stood out as she was an old lady who seemed to be able to go into the state and out of it at will just sitting comfortably and when they asked her about it she said it was something she had always had the ability to do but as a child she used to get a clip round the ear for it

[Khriss]

I usually put all my nice things and favourite books and ornaments on it , it is pleasing, must be 'shelf-eshteeme'  .... ( mmm is that my wine ? ) k

[the village idiot]

3 hours ago, peatff said:

Many years ago I watched a documentary studying brain wave patterns of people in different states and one that stood out was when they asked for people to go into a daydreaming state very much like the meditative state others were attaining. One example stood out as she was an old lady who seemed to be able to go into the state and out of it at will just sitting comfortably and when they asked her about it she said it was something she had always had the ability to do but as a child she used to get a clip round the ear for it

Mindfulness meditation is the opposite of daydreaming Peat. 

 

To be daydreaming is to be lost in thought. To be mindful is to be found in thought.

 

I'm rather proud of that one!