Free will or lack of.......

[Mortimer Firewood]

1 hour ago, the village idiot said:

Absolutely Bob, and not a derail at all. The environment (whether we are aware of it or not) plays a huge part in determining how we act. If you add the state of the brain into the mix, you have the forces at play in everything you think and everything you do. 

 

You ultimately have no control over the environment or the state of your brain in any given moment, meaning you are not responsible for your actions. They are carried out by your brain and body but 'you' do not get a say in the matter. The experience of 'youness' is just a curious add on.

 

You can get some idea of the problem with believing we have an unchanging self riding about in our heads by thinking about the following. Can anyone honestly say that they are the same self when at home, at work or out drinking with mates? Are you the same self you were 10 years ago, 1 year ago or even 10 minutes ago?

 

The environment largely dictates the self that shows up. Some people suffer from multiple fixed senses of self. Some people have reportedly lost the sense of self entirely and live constantly in the flow state. (this must be truly awesome).

 

It is fairly easy to see the 'self' as not being an unchanging constant. It is a bigger step, but entirely possible to see it for the illusion that it is. If you get to this point the concept of free will becomes untennable. 

 

It's really important to say that accepting that free will doesn't exist and that the 'self inside your head' is an illusion, doesn't change what you do in your life to any significant degree. The brain still does it's amazing things and directs you through the day. One chap who has purposefully extinguished his sense of self is an Accident and Emergency doctor.

 

The biggest change you will notice is how you view other people. Those doing well are lucky, those not getting on well are unlucky. This is an important shift in perception, it breeds compassion, which is surely a most excellent thing!

 

5 hours ago, aspenarb said:

Small derail but don`t retailers play games with our sub conscious? Constantly bombing us with subliminal messages in an attempt to alter our minds and spending habits.  A guy I know sells smells, they too sell retailers  products that can influence purchasers, certain smells are used that will influence purchasers in virtually any retail outlet.

 

http://adage.com/article/cmo-strategy/smell-money-marketers-sell-scent/296084/

 

Bob

  Just look at Facebook a lot of the guys that designed Facebook new how to get people hooked. 

We as humans love getting a reaction so by putting a like button in every time some one gets a like they get a dopamine release then there off chasing the next one. 

Some of them are now looking back wondering what they created, how will it change society not for the better I think. 

[Mark J]

11 minutes ago, Mortimer Firewood said:

Does your Tinnitus way you up at night?

No.  It doesn't wake me up.   Befriending the sensation of tinnitus rather than seeing it as an enemy, gives it less power over you.  As said before, the more you listen, the louder it gets.  So just don't listen. Would have saved myself a fortune in beer tokens if I'd worked that out in my twenties...

[the village idiot]

5 minutes ago, Mortimer Firewood said:

 

  Just look at Facebook a lot of the guys that designed Facebook new how to get people hooked. 

We as humans love getting a reaction so by putting a like button in every time some one gets a like they get a dopamine release then there off chasing the next one. 

Some of them are now looking back wondering what they created, how will it change society not for the better I think. 

Yes.  I am no conspiracy theorist (I'm pretty certain that the Earth is not flat, and that passenger jets are not spraying mind control chemicals into the atmosphere) but what is absolutely clear is the HUGE amount of leverage the big tech companies have over our lives and our behaviour. There's not much you can do about this other than be aware of it, and this might in turn lead to decisions like going back to a non-smart phone.

 

The benefits of big tech are undeniably huge and we should be glad we have it. There is a somewhat disturbing underbelly though and it pays to try to keep this in mind.

[onetruth]

What a surprising topic to stumble across on Arbtalk!  In case I repeat or appear to ignore previous posts, I should confess that I missed out the middle ten pages of this conversation...

 

The various forms of yoga to have come out of India over the past few thousand years have been concerned with breaking the self-imposed bondage caused by human ignorance.  Modern meditation techniques, such as mindfulness, have their root in these practices.

 

Essentially, by imagining a world with dualities (especially I and not-I), we plunge ourselves into a state of confusion and suffering.  Our brains create an artificial association between the consciousness (which is eternal and indivisible), and the machine of our minds/bodies.  We choose to associate with the thoughts and emotions of our minds and the sensations of our bodies, and call this impermanent, intangible thing: "I".  Presumably this is a biological (evolutionary) adaptation which is very useful for replicating DNA, but in reality is entirely disconnected from the reality of conscious being.  Our consciousness does not have free will, nor is it determined.  It does not suffer pleasure and pain, it does not think; it merely witnesses the thoughts and feelings of our mind.

 

Classical (western) theories of duality consider the mind-body problem.  I think this is a distraction: the distinction between the mechanical (both mind and body) and the essential/consciousness/spiritual/soul nature of our being is the more pressing problem of philosophy.  Any practice that can aid us in associating with the experiencer of life rather than the mere experiences of life is probably to our advantage.

 

Such methods are suitable whether or not one believes in God, gods, free will, determinism, even nihilism.  My personal belief is that God is all that exists, everything else is mere illusion, and is in no sense real.   Of course, merely believing this does not mean I have achieved mastery over the foibles of my own mind: I am as much a slave to desire as the next mortal, I just acknowledge that any misery I encounter is, fundamentally, entirely my own making.

[the village idiot]

15 minutes ago, onetruth said:

Essentially, by imagining a world with dualities (especially I and not-I), we plunge ourselves into a state of confusion and suffering.  Our brains create an artificial association between the consciousness (which is eternal and indivisible), and the machine of our minds/bodies.  We choose to associate with the thoughts and emotions of our minds and the sensations of our bodies, and call this impermanent, intangible thing: "I".  Presumably this is a biological (evolutionary) adaptation which is very useful for replicating DNA, but in reality is entirely disconnected from the reality of conscious being.  Our consciousness does not have free will, nor is it determined.  It does not suffer pleasure and pain, it does not think; it merely witnesses the thoughts and feelings of our mind.

16 minutes ago, onetruth said:

  Any practice that can aid us in associating with the experiencer of life rather than the mere experiences of life is probably to our advantage.

 

17 minutes ago, onetruth said:

My personal belief is that God is all that exists, everything else is mere illusion, and is in no sense real

Wow! And there was me thinking I was pushing the boat out!

Are you able to describe this God in any meaningful way? Can you explain how things like our bodies or trees or vacuum cleaners are 'in no sense real'?

[Mortimer Firewood]

1 hour ago, onetruth said:

What a surprising topic to stumble across on Arbtalk!  In case I repeat or appear to ignore previous posts, I should confess that I missed out the middle ten pages of this conversation...

 

The various forms of yoga to have come out of India over the past few thousand years have been concerned with breaking the self-imposed bondage caused by human ignorance.  Modern meditation techniques, such as mindfulness, have their root in these practices.

 

Essentially, by imagining a world with dualities (especially I and not-I), we plunge ourselves into a state of confusion and suffering.  Our brains create an artificial association between the consciousness (which is eternal and indivisible), and the machine of our minds/bodies.  We choose to associate with the thoughts and emotions of our minds and the sensations of our bodies, and call this impermanent, intangible thing: "I".  Presumably this is a biological (evolutionary) adaptation which is very useful for replicating DNA, but in reality is entirely disconnected from the reality of conscious being.  Our consciousness does not have free will, nor is it determined.  It does not suffer pleasure and pain, it does not think; it merely witnesses the thoughts and feelings of our mind.

 

Classical (western) theories of duality consider the mind-body problem.  I think this is a distraction: the distinction between the mechanical (both mind and body) and the essential/consciousness/spiritual/soul nature of our being is the more pressing problem of philosophy.  Any practice that can aid us in associating with the experiencer of life rather than the mere experiences of life is probably to our advantage.

 

Such methods are suitable whether or not one believes in God, gods, free will, determinism, even nihilism.  My personal belief is that God is all that exists, everything else is mere illusion, and is in no sense real.   Of course, merely believing this does not mean I have achieved mastery over the foibles of my own mind: I am as much a slave to desire as the next mortal, I just acknowledge that any misery I encounter is, fundamentally, entirely my own making.

I’m also interested in how you see God. 

It’s a concept I struggle with. 

[Rough Hewn]

What a surprising topic to stumble across on Arbtalk!  In case I repeat or appear to ignore previous posts, I should confess that I missed out the middle ten pages of this conversation...
 
The various forms of yoga to have come out of India over the past few thousand years have been concerned with breaking the self-imposed bondage caused by human ignorance.  Modern meditation techniques, such as mindfulness, have their root in these practices.
 
Essentially, by imagining a world with dualities (especially I and not-I), we plunge ourselves into a state of confusion and suffering.  Our brains create an artificial association between the consciousness (which is eternal and indivisible), and the machine of our minds/bodies.  We choose to associate with the thoughts and emotions of our minds and the sensations of our bodies, and call this impermanent, intangible thing: "I".  Presumably this is a biological (evolutionary) adaptation which is very useful for replicating DNA, but in reality is entirely disconnected from the reality of conscious being.  Our consciousness does not have free will, nor is it determined.  It does not suffer pleasure and pain, it does not think; it merely witnesses the thoughts and feelings of our mind.
 
Classical (western) theories of duality consider the mind-body problem.  I think this is a distraction: the distinction between the mechanical (both mind and body) and the essential/consciousness/spiritual/soul nature of our being is the more pressing problem of philosophy.  Any practice that can aid us in associating with the experiencer of life rather than the mere experiences of life is probably to our advantage.
 
Such methods are suitable whether or not one believes in God, gods, free will, determinism, even nihilism.  My personal belief is that God is all that exists, everything else is mere illusion, and is in no sense real.   Of course, merely believing this does not mean I have achieved mastery over the foibles of my own mind: I am as much a slave to desire as the next mortal, I just acknowledge that any misery I encounter is, fundamentally, entirely my own making.

Dude you are sooo bishop Berkeley.
Just need a crimson sack and a silver thread.
[emoji12]

[TIMON]

What a surprising topic to stumble across on Arbtalk!  In case I repeat or appear to ignore previous posts, I should confess that I missed out the middle ten pages of this conversation...
 
The various forms of yoga to have come out of India over the past few thousand years have been concerned with breaking the self-imposed bondage caused by human ignorance.  Modern meditation techniques, such as mindfulness, have their root in these practices.
 
Essentially, by imagining a world with dualities (especially I and not-I), we plunge ourselves into a state of confusion and suffering.  Our brains create an artificial association between the consciousness (which is eternal and indivisible), and the machine of our minds/bodies.  We choose to associate with the thoughts and emotions of our minds and the sensations of our bodies, and call this impermanent, intangible thing: "I".  Presumably this is a biological (evolutionary) adaptation which is very useful for replicating DNA, but in reality is entirely disconnected from the reality of conscious being.  Our consciousness does not have free will, nor is it determined.  It does not suffer pleasure and pain, it does not think; it merely witnesses the thoughts and feelings of our mind.
 
Classical (western) theories of duality consider the mind-body problem.  I think this is a distraction: the distinction between the mechanical (both mind and body) and the essential/consciousness/spiritual/soul nature of our being is the more pressing problem of philosophy.  Any practice that can aid us in associating with the experiencer of life rather than the mere experiences of life is probably to our advantage.
 
Such methods are suitable whether or not one believes in God, gods, free will, determinism, even nihilism.  My personal belief is that God is all that exists, everything else is mere illusion, and is in no sense real.   Of course, merely believing this does not mean I have achieved mastery over the foibles of my own mind: I am as much a slave to desire as the next mortal, I just acknowledge that any misery I encounter is, fundamentally, entirely my own making.

Sounds like pantheism to me [emoji51]

[tree-fancier123]

6 hours ago, Mortimer Firewood said:

We as humans love getting a reaction so by putting a like button in every time some one gets a like they get a dopamine release then there off chasing the next one. 

i was going to like your post - but now i know the dangers my new years resolution is to use the like button sparingly

[Vespasian]

2 hours ago, TIMON said:

 

Sounds like pantheism to me

 

sounds like the fella knows what he's talking about to me.. not sure were pantheism comes into it...

anyways why I popped in....

 

always nice to get a refresher to remind oneself whats being got at..   trouble with free will is you think on it for an hr or two and get it all, and half hr later it goes away again..  I keep telling myself that it doesn't matter as its not really a subject that concerns me in any great way.. But it keeps popping back in my mind making me think it really does matter, or aught matter....

 

anyways a short vid i came across to give some people a refresher, only ten minutes long...