A public "good" must be paid for from the public purse

[eggsarascal]

I'd dare bet you are livid now Mr Johnson.

[agg221]

Can anyone explain the whole subsidised farming thing? Not being a farmer or from farming stock I don't know much about it. Is it a case of getting financial help if your farm is in trouble? What are the conditions of that help?

 

The principle is that you receive a payment based on the area of agricultural land which you hold. To do so, you have to have a minimum holding of 5 hectares and any land you are claiming for must have an 'entitlement' - these can be bought and sold in their own right, so you need the land and the entitlement together to receive a payment.

 

To receive the payment, you also have to comply with various other rules such as the type of crops you grow as a rotation, certain areas being left uncultivated, retention of hedges etc. These have a negative impact on the return you can make on the land so offset this reduction in income. This is a relatively recent thing - following common agricultural policy reforms, which also introduced the 5ha threshold.

 

Before the CAP reforms we used to get a payment against our 1.8ha field. This was a few hundred pounds. Without it, we are pretty much condemned to making a loss so the land is only farmed because I am stubborn enough to want to do so. It would pay a lot better to rent it out to someone for horses. The only revenue which will offset the losses in the long term is the cricket bat willows we grow along the edge.

 

Alec

[Paul in the woods]

I wonder if he extends his logic to the public amenity provided by trees where the burden of maintenance and replanting falls to the private owner?

 

I often wondered why any expense of looking after TPOed trees isn't paid out of the public purse. Perhaps they could then go futher and start insisting anyone with space has to plant trees.

[Mull]

The idea and the reality, to a degree is that it is actually the food you buy that is subsidised, but you have the choice to buy food from countries that have no animal welfare laws etc.

 

 

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[kevinjohnsonmbe]

The idea and the reality, to a degree is that it is actually the food you buy that is subsidised, but you have the choice to buy food from countries that have no animal welfare laws etc.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Arbtalk

 

No chap, and as you identify in your statement - idea, reality and degree are entirely subjective....

 

I'd suggest, what is subsidised, and as Alec pointed out, that which is flawed, is that you don't even have to own the land to own the subsidy rights - they can and are freely traded, which results in:

 

(1) those working the land not always being those in receipt of the subsidy and (2) where inefficient and ineffective practices are deployed, the subsidy results in a continuum of that inefficiency rather than leading to price reductions at the counter.

 

The argument you put forward is an old and tired example of "if you repeat something often enough, people will believe it is true."

 

For Flatyre,

 

Think of a local, hard done by farmer, then run their details through this little baby to see how much subsidy they get:

 

Defra, UK - CAP Payments Search

 

It's quite enlightening, I've found some of those most vocal in their pleading poverty are the most unsettled by the knowledge that their subsidy income is public knowledge. Public money = public knowledge. Enjoy!!

 

You could also try:

 

United Kingdom | FarmSubsidy.org

 

I'm sure you will be STAGGERED by the level of public money that is paid, and in many cases where it is paid to....

[gdh]

Can anyone explain the whole subsidised farming thing? Not being a farmer or from farming stock I don't know much about it. Is it a case of getting financial help if your farm is in trouble? What are the conditions of that help?

 

Basically because most farms (not larger more intensive ones) make a loss or very small profit the government pays money to them based on land area they farm. It's dropping every year but around here it averages just under £50 per acre. I think the UK total is 3-4 billion a year.

 

There's a lot of conditions involving accurate records, inspections and mapping exercises but most are a requirement regardless which is why farms in the UK can't make a profit as easily as other countries with less restrictions on things like animal welfare.

 

There's also other short term environment schemes which cover the cost of things like planting hedges or fencing out areas for wildlife.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

I'd dare bet you are livid now Mr Johnson.

 

[Mull]

No chap, and as you identify in your statement - idea, reality and degree are entirely subjective....

 

 

 

I'd suggest, what is subsidised, and as Alec pointed out, that which is flawed, is that you don't even have to own the land to own the subsidy rights - they can and are freely traded, which results in:

 

 

 

(1) those working the land not always being those in receipt of the subsidy and (2) where inefficient and ineffective practices are deployed, the subsidy results in a continuum of that inefficiency rather than leading to price reductions at the counter.

 

 

 

The argument you put forward is an old and tired example of "if you repeat something often enough, people will believe it is true."

 

 

 

For Flatyre,

 

 

 

Think of a local, hard done by farmer, then run their details through this little baby to see how much subsidy they get:

 

 

 

Defra, UK - CAP Payments Search

 

 

 

It's quite enlightening, I've found some of those most vocal in their pleading poverty are the most unsettled by the knowledge that their subsidy income is public knowledge. Public money = public knowledge. Enjoy!!

 

 

 

You could also try:

 

 

 

United Kingdom | FarmSubsidy.org

 

 

 

I'm sure you will be STAGGERED by the level of public money that is paid, and in many cases where it is paid to....

 

 

I don't entirely agree with the system Kevin, although I am a recipient[emoji15].

You suggest that " you don't even have to own the land", thank god for that!! It would only be the landed gentry getting the sub!

I have my doubts about subsidising lamb production, not convinced lamb is part of the British publics staple diet.

It's certainly a very complicated issue.

 

 

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[Duncansimpson]

We should all be buying locally sourced environmentally friendly food. Sadly most people can't afford the luxury. Anyone who buys 2 chickens for a fiver should be strung up.

As for the cap payments, they badly need reforming but it needs to done with care. I for one care far more about the environment and animal welfare than I do about the plight of farmers.

[flatyre]

do even the big profitable farms get subsidised?