211 Notice

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

This question only arises because we're on the cusp of the Christmas break and it got me thinking.

 

6 weeks.....

 

Has anyone got down to the granular detail of exact timings for 6 weeks?

 

Is it time of submission (planning portal) + 6 weeks = expiry time / date or is it just by day/date? If day / date, is it the expiry of 42 days, i.e. day 43?

 

So, if submitted at 14:00 week -6, can work legally start at 14:00 week +6 or would you just go for the day/date (42 days) Would you start on the 42nd day or the 43rd day?

 

To take it one step further, if there is no indication of a TPO by the 41st day, would you do it? Technically incorrect to do so but how likely would a prosecution be? Would it be in the public interest to prosecute because it was day 41 even though there was no intention to TPO?

 

If day 41 is OK, where is the line? Day 40, day 35?

[skyhuck]

I've had a TPO arrive by recorded delivery at the landowner address on the 42 day.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

That's what I'm pondering....

 

Say you'd submitted notice online at 08:15 day 0 (is it day zero or day 1?) and the TPO notification arrived by courier / mail at 10:15 on day 42.

 

You started work at 08:30 day 42. Who's ass is in the sling?

 

It's probably too late and too far down the second bottle to figure out what should be a simple question....

[Gary Prentice]

Not that simple Kevin, a grey area from my own investigations.

 

Re Prosecution if you pre-empt the six weeks. If the notice would have been agreed, it probably wouldn't be in the public interest to pursue.

 

I don't use the PP if I can help it, submitting directly to the planning office gets a date-stamped automatic reply and the clock starts ticking. We get a similar acknowledgement from the PP (when the PD get it from them, but there is a delay)

 

Do Bank Holidays count in the six weeks? No-one has been able to answer that, to me, definitively! I've excluded them myself when cracking on on day 42.

 

Local Authorities may not date stamp submissions until they actually arrive at the relevant officers' desk, so may even argue when it was received.

 

We felled after six weeks (a pre Christmas notification) and the TPO landed the following day. To mash your mind further, when does the TPO become valid? When it is received or when it gets stamped in the legal department

 

Edit: I started a thread on this a few years ago, I'll look for it and post it up.

 

Tread lightly:lol:

[slack ma girdle]

One of our tree officers works on the assumption that the TPO is valid at the start of the six weeks, and is just as legally binding. Given his annal nature of correct legal procedure, he will have research this in detail

I have had a couple of customers in the past try to get me to cut down trees because they don't want TPO's put on their trees.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

Not that simple Kevin, a grey area from my own investigations.

 

Ain't that the truth! It's only arisen since there's potential and capacity to start a job on Thursday but not overly keen to start it Friday!

 

Re Prosecution if you pre-empt the six weeks. If the notice would have been agreed, it probably wouldn't be in the public interest to pursue.

 

That's what "seems" reasonable, but who knows! And then what is the extent of reasonableness? 42-1, or 2 perhaps, -10, 15 getting too much of a stretch! (This one is a 42, not a 42-10!)

 

I don't use the PP if I can help it, submitting directly to the planning office gets a date-stamped automatic reply and the clock starts ticking. We get a similar acknowledgement from the PP (when the PD get it from them, but there is a delay)

 

I do use PP and I take the PP date /time of submission as the clock starts ticking. Transfer times between PP & LA (or internally between LA desks is not something I take into account.). PP is being promoted as best use of e-working (planning champion) so how the "system" manages the inputs is beyond my interest or influence.

 

Do Bank Holidays count in the six weeks? No-one has been able to answer that, to me, definitively! I've excluded them myself when cracking on on day 42.

 

I had a TPO app which fell over Easter this year. With due sympathy for staff shortages and the TO from one district having to cover a neighbouring area, I simply couldn't generate any phone or email responses so at the 8 week point I emailed to say it was being directed to PINS. Got a reply almost immediately! Went something like "it's only just past 8 weeks and we have had Easter!" I wasn't convinced a similar excuse would have held any water if it had been my council tax that was due! 8 weeks is 8 weeks!

 

Local Authorities may not date stamp submissions until they actually arrive at the relevant officers' desk, so may even argue when it was received.

 

We felled after six weeks (a pre Christmas notification) and the TPO landed the following day. To mash your mind further, when does the TPO become valid? When it is received or when it gets stamped in the legal department

 

I'll have to ponder that later! More coffee required before setting out across the river to the metropolis (Plymuff) to get insurance damage repair quote for the van 🙄

 

Edit: I started a thread on this a few years ago, I'll look for it and post it up.

 

Tread lightly:lol:

 

 

Bugger! Not my foremost attribute!! 🤗

 

One of our tree officers works on the assumption that the TPO is valid at the start of the six weeks, and is just as legally binding. Given his annal nature of correct legal procedure, he will have research this in detail

I have had a couple of customers in the past try to get me to cut down trees because they don't want TPO's put on their trees.

 

 

That approach simply HAS to be flawed - a TPO cannot be valid BEFORE pen is put to paper!

 

It can't exist before it exists!!

[Gary Prentice]

Yes. Nowhere in the primary legislation or regulations are they excluded. In the TCPA?

 

When it's lawfully served. Served being signed for? (recorded delivery) So, theoretically, postman pat can be knocking on the door when the customers out, goes away with a mind to attempt to deliver the following day or leaves a note to be collected from the sorting office - all while trees are being felled in the back garden on day 41?

 

If you fell before the six weeks are up then the offence is committed. Do not assume that because an Order has not been served by day 40 one will not be served on day 41. We're lucky if the tree's even been looked at by day 41, at times.

 

Do not assume that because an order has not been served by day 40 it is not in the public interest to prosecute. The point I was attempting to make was more that, to prosecute it would need to be in the public interest. If a TPO wasn't going to be made, would it bein the public interest to prosecuter for something that would otherwise be acceptable. A bit like retrospective planning consent

 

There is case law on when notices start, unsurprisingly. Basically, the notice commences the day after it’s been given. E.g. if the S211 is received by the Council on the 1 February, then the clock starts ticking from the 2 February.

 

Ed

 

You wouldn't know what case in particular, off the top of your head? If not, I'll have a browse through Mynors

[Adam M]

6 weeks from receipt.

[Adam M]

You wouldn't know what case in particular, off the top of your head? If not, I'll have a browse through Mynors

 

There's notice on when an order is considered served buried within the T+CPA. I'll try to find it tomorrow.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

Yes. Nowhere in the primary legislation or regulations are they excluded.

 

When it's lawfully served.

 

If you fell before the six weeks are up then the offence is committed. Do not assume that because an Order has not been served by day 40 one will not be served on day 41.

 

Do not assume that because an order has not been served by day 40 it is not in the public interest to prosecute.

 

There is case law on when notices start, unsurprisingly. Basically, the notice commences the day after it’s been given. E.g. if the S211 is received by the Council on the 1 February, then the clock starts ticking from the 2 February.

 

Ed

 

There's no reference to date of submission +1 day = start of 42 days here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/8/section/211

 

"...after the expiry of the period of six weeks from the date of the notice but before the expiry of the period of two years from that date..."

 

"...after the end of the period of six weeks starting with the date of the notice..."

 

It frequently seems to be within the final week that 211 (non objection) or TPO (approval) is provided.... Maybe it's pressure of work and prioritising but it does sometimes seem a bit of a risky method. As you highlighted above, a TPO response to a CA notice may be considered valid when lawfully served.

 

It could quite easily be that serving the papers fails through absence of the homeowner and nobody at the office to sign for the contractors copy. Papers sit in the post office (un-served) awaiting collection, tree is lawfully removed from day 42 onwards.

 

Just hypothetical obviously, but surely more easily avoided if not left to the 11th hour??

 

Quick call today confirmed (verbally) that no TPO in my particular circumstance for Thursday and papers have been sent to PO for approval / signature.

 

On the down side, means I have to go to work Thursday. On the plus side, "...there will be turkey for dinner on Christmas day Tiny Tim...."